[Noise] Welcome (back) to the Church

Badeesh · September 9, 2014, 12:41pm

Been thinking about it since I posted and I’m leaning more and more towards Knight’s and 2 each of the others. I probably wouldn’t have done this before, but yeah, Lotus Field is a big shift and needs to be considered. I’ll probably chuck them in now anyway to start getting used to the change.

EDIT: I’m still not sure though, hard countering for one piece of ice is quite the decision to have to make. Especially since I have no idea how many I’m going to see around. Maybe just the one Crypsis til I can see the lay of the land.

moistloaf · September 9, 2014, 3:10pm

You mean, “I sacrifice 3 clicks to put you back 8-12 clicks.” Pretty solid play by the Corp…

GreedyGuts · September 9, 2014, 4:02pm

Yeah, unless you can force multiple concurrent wipes, they’re not that big a deal. Corp players are often too averse to doing them, but… well, it’s a punishment mechanic. Letting the Corp decide when losing a turn is or is not worthwhile is far from ideal. “4 Medium counters and they trashed something with the Imp they played last turn, I don’t want to let that happen, and I got nothing to protect, WIPE” is not a hard choice to make.

One reason I think Incubator has such potential to be powerful. It builds slowly, on its own time, but at the cost of making any installed virus a Double (more or less) it lets them become a major threat… and they have to predict what you’ve got and what you’re planning to do. Mandates much more frequent wiping, lest you turn it into a massive advantage.

Ajar · September 9, 2014, 4:34pm

So far I’m not doing very well at all with Atman Noise. I think once Inject is out I’m going to drop Atman and rework the breaker suite, since you don’t really want to be dumping Atman in your heap with Inject, and Inject looks too good to pass up. I’m thinking 3x Aesop’s / 3x Cache / 2x Clone Chip / 2x Quality Time for influence post-Inject, and cut Wyldside.

moistloaf · September 9, 2014, 5:18pm

I like Incubator, but as you said, I think it has an easy fix for the Corp, which is to purge. I personally would like to see some kind of Anarch hardware that trashes to prevent a purge. If it were properly costed, I don’t think it would be over-powered. Purging is one of the few remaining things that Runners can’t do anything about. Considering how vital it is for many Anarch strategies, they could use some purge protection ASAP.

Thike · September 9, 2014, 5:25pm

Or at least a way to punish purging. Maybe a growing virus that makes the corp lose credits equal to the number of tokens on it. Regardless, I’ve found purges easy to work around. It’s mostly about making the corp think they have time when they don’t. Atman is great for that. Drop it and suddenly you have cheap access to a server. Surge and Bishop are great with Darwin and Parasite. If they’re purging to keep you out of archives, keep HQ as an option.

Purging is the corp trying to control our tempo. Messing with that tempo is the way to handle it.

GreedyGuts · September 9, 2014, 7:36pm

But that’s the advantage of Incubator, I think. It heavily screws with their ability to analyze the danger they’re in. Either they purge more than they need to, or they open themselves up to sudden surprises of the sort viruses can’t really manage right now. No other virus can really force the corp to purge repeatedly without serious cost to the runner – Medium/Nerve Agent come closest, followed by repeated Imps, but both of those have associated costs (multiple clicks/credits required for access in the case of Medium/NA, and, well, recursion or multiple cards for multiple Imps) that Incubator lacks.

It’s not perfect, and doesn’t punish them for purging, but it takes some of the knowledge/control out of their hands when it comes to judging the right time, which could be pretty huge. (Though the only things it works super well with are NA/Medium/Datasucker, at least when it comes out. Hemorrhage maaaybe, but not really. Imp is tolerable, Cache is… doable if you need, I guess. Crypsis or Darwin might like it, but just as maybe not.)

Shango · September 9, 2014, 11:40pm

Hopefully they’ll never make such a card. Wasting a whole corp turn for nothing, and keeping all your virus counters? How insane would that be…

Maybe a card that preserves virus counters on ONE card, or something similar to Sealed Vault for Virus counters. Something like:

Virus Vault
Hardware
$1: Move a virus counter from a program to [virus vault]. Use this ability only when the Corp purges virus counters, and only from one program. Virus counters cannot be removed from [virus vault] during a purge.
click, trash: move all virus counters from [virus vault] to an installed program.

moistloaf · September 10, 2014, 12:06am

I don’t think the current timing windows in ANR allow for such “in response” effects, but I get where you’re going.

endgame · September 10, 2014, 1:11am

Seems like a less abusive version of Code Viral Cache, so perhaps you could reword it as:

Virus Vault Hardware Virus counters on Virus Vault are not removed during purges. Whenever the corp purges virus counters, you may pay $X to move X virus counters from another card to Virus Vault (Remark: there are non-programs with virus counters - Virus Breeding Ground) Click, Trash: Move all virus counters from Virus Vault to an installed **virus** program. (Remark: Otherwise we get Tennin-style silliness)

Sedj · September 10, 2014, 1:52am

I would prefer if such a card were triggered by the Runner and not in response to the Corp’s purge. A good anarch KNOWS when the purge will happen because they force the issue on the corp. If they manage to get 3-5 counters on a medium or nerve agent, it’s imminent if not guaranteed.

Virus Vault
Hardware
Virus counters on Virus Vault are not removed during purges.
click: X credits. Move X virus counters from another card to Virus Vault
Click, Trash: Move all virus counters from Virus Vault to an installed card.

It would also have potential combo-ability to install something like Lamprey and grimore, surge and then pull onto the vault, then reuse on medium.

Badeesh · September 10, 2014, 6:43am

Yeah I don’t find it ‘quite’ that bad. Maybe I don’t rely on my tokens so much.

Shango · September 10, 2014, 9:30pm

Let’s be honest about what Noise really wants.

Look Under Your Chair
Resource
At the start of your turn, place a virus counter on each installed virus program.
“YOU get a virus counter! YOU get a virus counter! EVERYONE GETS A NEW VIRUS COUNTER!”

Myriad · September 11, 2014, 4:42am

Isn’t that basically hivemind?

CrimsonWraith · September 20, 2014, 2:17am

Sorry for the delay in a response… Between being sick and Destiny coming out, I haven’t played in a couple weeks (including not playing since First Contact came out), and with all the furor over the NetrunnerDB shutdown, I’ve made myself scarce on the forums as well. But since I’ve got a tournament tomorrow, I figured I’d hop back on… =D

Deja Vu is an all-star in my deck, primarily for virus recursion - specifically Cache. That said, it also helps with the scant few breakers and giving you the ability to yank them back if you lose one to some form of program destruction.

Same Old Thing: These were specifically included for Deja Vu, and after playing with a full set of three for a couple of weeks, I would now agree that a full three copies is overkill. If I got these in the early game, I would install them and they would sit unused for most of the game, just serving as an economy boost (usually SOT for Deja Vu for 2 Caches) when I needed it. They’re great additions to the deck, but I don’t think they need to take up a full three slots and I’ve gone down to two in my latest version of this deck.

Dirty Laundry: Due to Wyldside, I felt my deck was very tight on clicks and Dirty Laundry was a shoe-in for the economy deck’s because it gives me credits for doing something I already wanted to do. I’ll typically save it for an instance when I know I can get into a server, and it can also lessen the setback of running and trashing something like SanSan when I don’t have an Imp ready to go. And while I don’t get the extra credit from Desperado, I do normally have a Datasucker out and profit from central server runs with virus tokens in addition to the 3 credits for Dirty Laundry. Click compression yada yada.

Armitage: One of my favorite economy cards, and I strongly prefer it to Daily Casts. That said, clicking for credits with Armitage is just too big of a tempo hit with Wyldside out, so I have gone with Daily Casts in this deck.

Djinn: I would tend to agree that Djinn is redundant Wyldside, I have never felt the need for Djinn (for memory or for tutoring) in my Noise deck.

Atman: You absolutely need two copies in the deck, and if it wasn’t so much influence I would run three. And the reason is… included in my commentary on the next card.

Rototurret: It varies from Corp to Corp and how familiar I am with the person I am playing against (and their standard decks), but I often install my first Atman at strength 0 and rely on it and Datasuckers to get through servers in the early game.

Thike · September 20, 2014, 2:50am

Have you experimented with only two Aesop’s? I want to find influence for a Hades Shard, but can’t see anywhere to cut. Aesop’s is a hit to the economic consistency, but I can’t drop Cache or Atman.

CrimsonWraith · September 20, 2014, 3:44am

At one point I had a version that ran two Aesop’s and two Gorman Drips, but I decided ensuring I had Aesop’s (and thus running a full set) in the early game was more important than more cheap viruses. If I were to experiment with Hades Shard (which I haven’t done, yet - but plan to eventually), I would probably try dropping the third Aesop’s before dropping a third Cache.

Thike · September 20, 2014, 4:00am

I think I’ll first mess around with -1 Aesop’s, -1 SoT, +1 Hades, +1 Rachel Beckman. I think Beckman could be insane in some matchups, and I’m often rich enough to swing it.

moistloaf · September 20, 2014, 4:51am

Here’s my current build. After playing with Scavenge I don’t think I’ll ever play Noise without it. It enables some really strong breaker installs, and gives you some emergency breaker recursion. This deck can dig itself out of really deep holes; I have been able to recover from the weakest draws. You can even recur Scavenge with Deja Vu. Scherz+Cyberfeeder+Cache+Grimoire+Scavenge (not terribly difficult to achieve with a Wyldside online) is the easiest 10c you’ll ever make, and it only costs 2 clicks. I am even thinking about running some SOT just to recur Deja Vu, but it might be overkill.

###[Dumpster Noise 1.1][1] (45 cards)

[Noise: Hacker Extraordinaire][2]

Event (8)

3 [Deja Vu][3]
2 [Dirty Laundry][4]
3 [Scavenge][5] ••••• •

Hardware (5)

3 [Cyberfeeder][6]
2 [Grimoire][7]

Resource (9)

3 [Aesop’s Pawnshop][8] ••••• •
3 [Daily Casts][9]
3 [Wyldside][10]

Icebreaker (3)

1 [Corroder][11]
1 [Mimic][12]
1 [Yog.0][13]

Program (20)

3 [Cache][14] •••
1 [D4v1d][15]
3 [Datasucker][16]
3 [Imp][17]
1 [Lamprey][18]
2 [Medium][19]
1 [Nerve Agent][20]
3 [Parasite][21]
3 [Scheherazade][22]

Still not totally happy with Nerve Agent’s performance, although it’s nice to have the option to Scavenge it back late game and threaten HQ out of nowhere. Lamprey is basically worthless; if anything I could cut that for 1 SOT. Or maybe Hades Shard!

bayushi_david · September 20, 2014, 7:59am

Totally agree on Atman. It’s the hub of my Noise build now. I’ve experimented with three, but I think two is right. I think you need it to ensure a game against any sort of Glacier. I think RP still eats Noise alive, but Atman swings the HB match-up in your favour and also the Weyland programme destruction match-up (set to five for Grim and Archer).

I don’t play Aesops or Wyldside anymore. I was missing a lot of turns using it and between Gamble, Casts/Kati (I haven’t made up my mind on which yet), Cyberfeeder, Cache and Codebusting I have enough money - not bucket loads, but enough. Clone Chip is a better use of the influence to my mind and allows any number of ridiculous plays - pulling emergency money with Cache mid-run, bringing back D4V1D to deal with Archer etc etc. I’m even starting to reconsider Deja Vu because I think a full set with Clone Chip as well might be overkill and I get quite a few “Deja, Clone Chip x2” opening hands that don’t do anything up front.