Official Rules Question Thread

Here’s proof that trigger = resolve.

Bifrost Array

When you score Bifrost Array, you may trigger the “when scored” ability of another agenda that is not a copy of Bifrost Array in your score area.

24/7 News Cycle

As an additional cost to play 24/7 News Cycle, forfeit an agenda.
Resolve the “when scored” ability on an agenda in your score area.

How is that proof?

Other good examples of abilities triggering and resolving at different times are Joshua B, Chum, and certain replacement effects.

What needs clarifying on additional costs?

Are they included in the rule : This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of paying play, install, or rez costs ?

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Joshua B’s ability starts resolving as soon as it triggers. It finishes resolving at a different point of time, yes. I’m saying there doesn’t seem to be any technical difference between triggering and starting to resolve, and sometimes the terms “trigger” and “resolve” are used interchangeably. Sometimes “resolve” means “start resolving”, same as “trigger” (e.g. 24/7, Batty), and sometimes it means “finish resolving” (e.g. Tallie Perrault, Comet).

At the same time there isn’t a well established term for a check for conditional abilities made when/whenever something happens. We check for abilities that “would trigger”. I, along with some other players, thought that abilities trigger when an event happens, and then resolve in the order of player’s choice.

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I think there are three ways in which the wording of this ruling could be improved:

  1. It seems to me that it only applies to events and operations. Cards of other types often don’t have any immediate effect when installed. They only change the game state by decreasing the amount of credits a player has, leaving his hand, and being installed in the “in play” zone. If this is considered to be enough of a game state change, I’m not sure why an event/operation leaving a player’s hand and going to the heap/archives is not (e.g. Archived Memories with no cards in Archives). I suggest the following wording: “A player can only play an event/opertion or trigger an ability if…

  2. The second sentence should cover trigger costs (for paid abilities, and some conditional abilities).

  3. The second sentence should explicitly mention additional costs, because currently the game vocabulary is quite obscure about the difference between “all play/install/rez costs” and singular “play/install/rez cost”.

Tallie and Comet both mean after resolution because they literally say “after resolving”. You always have to consider the whole context.

Speaking of, Comet is another great example of something that triggers and resolves at different times. It triggers when you play an event but resolves when the event finishes resolving. So you could, for example, play Uninstall to bring the Comet to hand, and then with Comet’s already triggered ability play Apocalypse (if you really needed to save that copy of Comet for some reason).

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The effect of installing places the installed card within your rig/servers. That is a change of game state: the card was not in play, now it is. Placing the card in play is a matter of the effect of installing, not the cost.

By contrast, trashing in play cards for paid abilities such as Clone Chip is part of the cost, not the effect. So while the cost of Clone Chip’s ability always changes the game state, what is important is that the effect changes the game state (so you can’t trash it without installing something from the heap).

I agree completely. I think in trying to make the rule more generally applicable to anything it has become slightly obfuscated. (This is a common problem in Netrunner, see almost all parentheticals in card text.) Maybe the rule can be revisited.

(FWIW this rule is based off of the almost identical text in the Game of Thrones Rules Reference.)

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Interesting. What makes this interaction different from Aesop + Wyldside?

I’d think that in both cases a game event happens (start of turn, or I played an event card), then I wait for something to resolve (Aesop, or Uninstall), then when I’m ready to resolve another effect I check if the card generating it (Wyldside, or Comet) is still active, and it’s not, so nothing triggers or resolves.

Remember that Wyldside hasn’t yet triggered in that situation. If there were another simultaneous effect to worry about, then this interaction wouldn’t work. I don’t know of anything else that triggers off of an event resolving though.

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What exactly is the effect of installing a card? I mean, the effect of an event or operation is its text (except for any “as an additional cost” line). The effect of a paid ability is what goes after the colon (:). Some conditional abilities are written in a “do X to do Y” or “if you pay X, do Y” format - it’s rather clear where is cost and where is effect. What makes you say that bringing a card into play is the effect of installing, other than, well, common sense? I mean, common sense doesn’t apply in ANR rules all that well :wink:

This is what I don’t understand. Why Wyldside doesn’t trigger at the start of turn, but Comet does trigger immediately when an event is played.

While we’re at it, I’d like to ask about the following interaction:

Fisk Investment Seminar + Daily Business Show + Bug

I assume that the corp draws all three cards at once, then draws one more and adds 1 of the 4 cards drawn to the bottom of R&D, correct? When does Bug trigger, and when does it start resolving? Can I ask the corp to reveal exactly the first card drawn, or the socend? Does he have to do it before drawing the fourth card?

The click is part of the cost, it’s written as such. Installing the card (playing it to the board) is an effect, it’s written as such. It makes sense that the printed install cost for Runner cards, the ICE install cost for the Corp and any additional costs for either side are costs, since they’re called costs! :slight_smile:

Okay, but why doesn’t playing an event or operation affect the game state by itself? Installing a card does - there is now an installed card in play. But there’s also an event card in the heap - why isn’t that enough?

That seems totally opposite from how Pawnshop + Wyldslide was just explained to me. Pawnshop and Wyldslide both trigger, the player chooses to resolve Pawnshop first, then the player chooses to resolve Wyldslide next, but the game checks if Wyldslide is still on the table and decides that Wyldslide should do nothing. Wyldslide has to be there both when its triggering condition is met, and when it comes time to resolve it. You’re saying Comet can be there when its triggering condition is met, but need not be there when it comes time to resolve it? WHY?

If you’re saying that Pawnshop totally finishes resolving before Wyldslide even triggers off start of turn, in which case there’s no reason I shouldn’t be able to fully resolve Adonis trickle and Executive Boot Camp before a second Adonis trickle. Unless you come up with a convoluted “Halfway triggered state” or something. I see no understandable way Hayley-yes Pawnshop-yes Adonis-no can work out.

Because of the way “simultaneous triggers” work. Whenever more than one ability would trigger from the same event, those abilities are put into the queue and the players choose the order that those abilities trigger, not the order that those abiliies resolve. There can only be one student at the front of the classroom, but any number of kids can have their hands raised waiting to be called to the front of the class.

Reread page 22, and you will see the distinction in language.

[quote=“Core Rule Book”]
When one or more abilities have the same timing trigger or can be triggered at the same time, each player chooses the order his own abilities trigger. A player can trigger an optional conditional ability before a required conditional ability if they both have the same trigger condition.

Simultaneous effect example
The Runner has Aesop’s Pawnshop and Wyldside installed and both have the same trigger condition of “When your turn begins.” The Runner begins his turn and can choose to trigger the optional conditional ability on Aesop’s Pawnshop first, gaining 3< by trashing Wyldside. This stops Wyldside’s required conditional ability from triggering, keeping the Runner from losing [click].[/quote]

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You’re trying to compare apples to oranges. Cards that are or are not present for their trigger conditions is a completely different situation from cards that are waiting for their turn to trigger.

Your next post explained it.

Man that’s complicated. 3 different states, waiting to trigger, triggered, resolving.

But it makes sense now.

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