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Official Rules Question Thread


#4455

I read it this way as well. You get to choose the order of your simultaneous triggers:

a) Trigger SDB first due to successful Archives run, DS gets a token due to successful HQ run.
b) Trigger DS first, it gets a token due to successful Archives run, but you access cards from HQ due to SDB

Either way, one token.


#4456

Well, that would make sense, but SDB isn’t triggered, it’s a constant effect.


#4457

Yeah, I guess it’s not so bad for the datasucker case (where the successful run on archives is replaced with a successful run on HQ, but there is still a single “successful run” trigger).

It gets a little dodgy to me with sec testing – looking at the “conditional abilities” in the rules reference, I think that the explanation for what happens comes from

If the trigger condition of a conditional ability is met by a
specific timing structure of the game (for example, “When
your turn begins…”) and that timing structure becomes invalid
between the trigger condition being met and the ability
triggering, then the triggered ability never triggers and does
not resolve. A timing structure becomes invalidated by that
structure ending prematurely, usually due to simultaneous
effects or chain reactions.

In this case, I think the interpretation is that sneakdoor’s redirect to HQ and Sec Testing’s ability are both satisfied by the successful run on Archives.

If the runner resolves sneakdoor first, then the archives sec test falls into the situation above (the “successful run on archives” trigger is no longer valid once sneakdoor replaces it). Additionally, from the “ordinal events” section of the rules reference:

When an ability refers to a specific ordinal instance of
something happening (e.g. “the first time”, “the second time”,
etc.), it refers to that instance and only that instance. If a
replacement or prevent ability happens, the game still counts it
toward the number of times the replaced or prevented event has
occurred.

if you resolve the sneakdoor first in this situation, the sec testing effect on archives will not trigger again this turn (even though it was replaced with a successful run on HQ, there has already been a successful run on Archives this turn).

In the case of sec test on archives AND hq, you are going to cause at least one of them to fizzle: either you resolve archives sec test, sneakdoor, hq sec test (in which case the HQ sec test cannot replace the “access cards” that the archives sec test already replaced) OR you resolve sneakdoor, archives sec test (fails), hq sec test.

In both cases, the “first run” on both HQ and archives has been used for the turn.

This feels a little straighter in my head, so unless anybody tells me that @3N1GM4’s response and my reading of the rules ref are bogus, I’m going to claim that I understand a thing now.


#4458

As I said, SDB and Omar are constant effects, they do not “trigger.” They just are.

It works like this, if you have Sec Test on Archives and SDB, you will access HQ. If you have SDB on HQ and sneakdoor, you will Sec Test.

I direct your attention here: http://ancur.wikia.com/wiki/Sneakdoor_Beta_%26_Security_Testing_Ruling

Again, you keep using the word “trigger” to express something that is not triggered. Datasucker is triggered on successful run, so it gains a counter when you make a successful HQ run through a sneakdoor run.

Awhile back, someone tried to make the bogus claim that sneakdoor satisfied both HQ and Archives for Apocalypse and Notoriety. It does not.


#4459

Ah, we were posting at the same time.

The relevant section from ANCUR’s giant abilities explanation page

Assume an ability is constant unless it uses “when”, “whenever”, “after”, or “unless”. Constant abilities generally define a “state of being”.

“If” abilities are all constant. This means “if {some trigger}” abilities have priority over “when {some trigger}” abilities. “Until” abilities are also all constant, and can be read as “if not”.

and

Question 12
Is there a priority order for ability resolution? Conventional wisdom in the player community holds constant>conditional>triggered, with prevent effects existing outside of that priority.

Constant abilities are always resolved first. Conditional abilities are a subset of triggered abilities, which also includes paid abilities.

…so sec testing’s text “The first time you make a successful run on that server this turn…” is close enough to “when…” that it is considered a conditional triggered ability, and sneakdoor’s “If successful,…” puts it squarely in “constant ability” land. so sneakdoor must be resolved first.

Thank you for your patience.


#4460

Nothing about the second if requires the first to be true.


#4461

No, it’s a triggered ability. The trigger is “the first time X”. Assume it is constant UNLESS it uses terminology referring to a “time”.


#4462

Still confused. I also don’t see why “it” isn’t “the next card that you access this run”.

I mean, it’s Netrunner card wording, which is sometimes weird, so I can certainly be convinced that “it” is instead “the card you just revealed”. But it’s very unclear to me what about this wording causes that.


#4463

Now I’m confused, too. I think you’re right that “the next card that you access this run” is what is being referenced, but I’ve also been told that you can’t expose installed cards and thus can’t use RNG Key on them. I’m torn between the wording and what I’ve been doing in practice. :frowning:


#4464

It’s being hotly debated in Stim Slack right now. Jacob came by and confirmed the ruling (not that we don’t believe Chris). Jacob did say he helped write the card and the design is to guess at a card in HQ/R&D (not an upgrade).

My best interpretation is that if you can’t resolve the reveal, then you’ve lost the reference of the card, and don’t get the payout.


#4465

I don’t go on Stimslack anymore, so I just heard about it through the Seattle Slack. Sounds like it got heated. I honestly wasn’t trying to argue, just trying to explain how I’ve been told it works :slight_smile:


#4466

I think we’ve all realized how confusing it is. Latest from Jacob on Slack that I saw:

In case I haven’t made this clear yet: I agree 100% that the card is unclear, as most cards are because they are trying to communicate complex processes with just english in a limited amount of space. I will talk to Boggs about it. Maybe he will decide something different, maybe he will errata the card, maybe he won’t see a problem, who knows.

We’ll see if it changes.


#4467

Thank you! Reading the debate in Slack didn’t help exactly, except for the message you just quoted, but it was entertaining.


#4468

Interesting. It makes a lot of sense that the card is intended to work this way and should probably be clarified to say something like
"If you do, reveal the next card that you access from HQ or R&D this run."
That way, it would still allow you to access any upgrades first without wasting the trigger.


#4469

Fussy timing question: can Batty be used to trash paperclip after the paperclip installation window but before clippy breaks the ice?

I thought yes, but looking at the timing chart it looks like batty can be rezzed and fired in 2.3 (before on encounter effects) or 3.1 (after runner paid abilities including icebreaking). Is that right?


#4470

3.1 isn’t a rez window, it’s only a paid ability window.


#4471

Short answer: No, Batty cannot fire between paperclip being installed and being used.

Batty can only be rezzed at 2.3, since there is no rez allowed at 3.1. If one does rez but not fire Batty at 2.3, then the runner has priority at 3.1 to resolve all abilities, including both installing and using Paperclip. The corp can use Batty at 3.1 to trash Paperclip, however by the time the corp has this opportunity, the subroutines are already broken, so the runner will still pass the ice.


#4472

I think the install actually happens before anyone can use paid abilities at 3.1, because it’s a conditional ability. That enables the following almost-certainly-irrelevant exception: If it’s your turn, which is only going to happen if you’ve played An Offer You Can’t Refuse, then you get to act at 3.1 first, and so provided that you’ve rezzed Batty at 2.3 or earlier, you can in fact fire him after they install Paperclip but before they break the ice.


#4473

Makes sense - bonus points for the AOYCR edge case!

Thanks!


#4474

Everyone here probably already know, but a small clarification for anyone new: Paperclip gets installed at step 3 (before 3.1), doesn’t change anything about this interaction though.