Didn’t we already go through this when we all realized you can install Corporate Troubleshooter on Off-Campus Apartment?
6 Likes
By definition new cards do new stuff. “This has never happened before” is generally not a good reason why a new thing isn’t going to do something new!
So if we give a piece of ICE the icebreaker subtype can we then host that ICE on Dinosaurus and then Aesop’s that ice at the beginning of our next turn?
Dinosaurus card text:
Dinosaurus can host a single non-AI icebreaker. The memory cost of the hosted icebreaker does not count against your memory limit. Hosted icebreaker has +2 strength. Limit 1 console per player.
You can only host cards when you install them, and as the runner you’d never install that Ice, so make it Icebreaker all you want, you can’t do anything with Dino.
4 Likes
That’s what I figured. However, the following wording is confusing and leads me to believe that installing something is not necessarily the only way to host something.
“The state of hosting is distinct (but not exclusive from) the state of installing. Most cards are hosted on another card when they are installed. If a card is hosted but not installed, the card is inactive.”
Which part of that implies that you can host something that is already installed?
“Most cards are hosted on another card when they are installed.” So “most”, but not all?
Yeah some of them are hosted but not installed 
2 Likes
Well that clears it up. 
If a card is hosted but not installed the hosting card tells you how to host the card (eg Personal Workshop)
1 Like
The Chess piece programs are examples of cards that are explicitly installed and then hosted, but the cards themselves dictate that exclusion.
1 Like
precedent as a function, not a concept. Naming wraparound as a fracter is a functional thing. You are simply moving the accepted function from one side of the board to another
Attempting to gain stealth creds off of little engine is a conceptual thing. You are attempting to create a new concept of how stealth credits are obtained.
That’s all I got. I don’t find wraparound discussions fun i’m afraid.
1 Like
I think of the stealth credit thing like this scene:
Once the credits come off the card and go into the runner’s credit pool, they’re just credits. Only while they’re on the card are they stealth credits. So don’t put them in your pocket, keep them somewhere special, or they’ll just be credits, which they are.
3 Likes
The point is that it’s not necessarily a new concept. You have assumed that stealth credits worked in a particular manner because none of the pre-existing cards contradicted that idea. Whether your concept was true or not didn’t really matter previously, since it made no mechanical difference to the game.
Now, a case exists where the truth or otherwise of your assumption about stealth credits (that they can only exist as hosted items) actually makes a difference. So we need to know in more detail how they actually are supposed to work, whereas before it was merely a theoretical nicety and it didn’t matter in practice whether your assumption was right or wrong.
2 Likes
There are some cards that have a special interaction with credits with the stealth subtype.
To use those abilities, you need to use credits that have the stealth subtype.
The runner has no ‘stealth credit’ pool, only a credit pool.
You can take stealth credits off of Little Engine, but you have no means of storing them as stealth credits. So I’d say you can collect stealth credits, but once they are in your pool, they are just credits.
If I dump a bottle of drinking water into a lake, the water is still there, but it is no longer drinking water, and can no longer be taken out of the lake as drinking water.
5 Likes
Why do you have no means of storing them as stealth credits?
Simply make a separate pile!
What I think you really mean is that you haven’t had to before. It is extra book-keeping that hasn’t been needed before, yes, but that doesn’t mean it can’t work that way. We never needed to remember how many tags we’d taken that turn before Qianju PT, now we need to do that book-keeping. Things can change in the way we view things: now we have to conceive of tags as the first or second of the turn, whereas before we could see all tags as entirely fungible and it made no difference.
It might be that stealth credits can only exist as hosted items. It might be that they can exist outside of that.
The point is that because one of those options involves changing the way you have conceived stealth credits to date, that doesn’t make it any more or less valid.
No, I mean there exist a number of specified play areas, per the core rules:
Runner Play Area
In addition to his credit pool, identity card, score area, and click
tracker, the Runner’s play area includes his grip, his stack, his
heap, and his rig.
There is no allowance for a ‘separate pile’ or any subdivision of credits in the runner play area. The runner only has credits in their pool, no ‘stealth credits.’ Within the runner’s rig there may be stored or recurring credits that may have the stealth subtype. These credits are stealth credits, as they have the stealth subtype associated with them.
Credits in the runner’s credit pool are just credits, Friend-o. 
5 Likes
Actually they’re not even ‘stealth credits’. That phrase isn’t mentioned anywhere I can find. Refractor, for instance, refers to ‘spending a credit from a stealth card’, which obviously refers to credits placed on stealth cards, not credits somehow moved into the credit pool from cards with a stealth subtype. As you point out the credits in a runner’s credit pool are fungible and indistinguishable.
8 Likes
Is this the thread where people intentionally misunderstand the rules or something?
18 Likes
Even better! Thank you for the clarification, hopefully we can finally put this discussion to bed. I think the argument is well beyond iron-clad at this point.
I feel like there are any number of places where one can look to see a reason why this doesn’t work; I really don’t know why the idea has persisted for so long.
It feels that way sometimes, but that is also the nature of pushing the rules, I just think this particular push is well beyond the breaking point.
2 Likes