And I’m saying the opposite (actually I think there’s little difference regarding cheating, but in terms of keeping up with board state I find dice so much easier).
Good attempt to back-track, but to quote Poker News: “Angle-shooting: A poker player who uses various underhanded, unfair methods to take advantage of inexperienced opponents. The difference between an angle shooter and a cheat is only a matter of degree. What a cheat or thief does is patently against the rules; what an angle shooter does may be marginally legal, but it’s neither ethical nor gentlemanly. Nor is it in the spirit of the game.”
I’m not attempting to back track. I said what I meant and I meant what I said. Nice attempt to undermine my argument by quoting a source that contradicts itself. Angle shooting: ungentlemanly behavior that doesn’t violate the rules. Cheating: ungentlemanly behavior that does violate the rules. Your source is incorrect in describing a categorical difference as a difference of degree.
To repeat, I am not saying people tracking with dice are underhanded or even doing anything intentionally wrong. I am saying that the tracking method itself is easier to misuse, intentionally or otherwise.
Specific example, in form of question: which is easier, to set a d20 to a wrong number or to make a 1.25" plastic chip disappear or appear magically?
I actually just stopped using mine because (a) they’re literally impossible to read on a light surface (which was super-relevant at Louisville regionals because the tables were all white and I didn’t own a playmat at that time) and (b) they’re frickin’ huge. It’s a pain to carry them around. Which is a shame considering what a pain in the ass it was to get the order in the first place, but hey.
Incidentally, I’d have to find my source again, but I swear I read that you’re allowed to ask your opponent to use standard tokens instead of dice or alt tokens if it’s impacting your play experience; if they don’t, a TO can force them to switch. Unfortunately I can’t find where I read this, assuming I didn’t just make it up whole cloth.
For me, using dice makes it easier to see credit totals, and using credit tokens makes it easier to do almost everything else:
spend credits (move spent credits instead of doing a subtraction and adjusting dice, less room for error)
check someone else’s spending (count moving credits instead of doing a subtraction)
take credits from cards (move credits instead of adjusting dice and/or moving tokens)
advance cards (same as above)
Basically, anything that involves checking a transaction (ie. whenever a credit total changes) I find easier with credit tokens, because you can simply count what is physically moving. Credit totals themselves are easier to see with dice, but I don’t always care about the total, and there’s always a risk of bumping the die. And that’s only valid when using spin-down dice.
Both methods do have dark sides: using regular dice and fumbling for the right number is a huge waste of time, and piling credit tokens so that they can’t be counted is obfuscating game information. Don’t hesitate to let people know that this is annoying at a tournament.
The potential for foolery mentioned earlier in the thread arises when a player, who is using credit tokens, places “normal” tokens on cards like Kati instead of directly placing credit tokens. There’s no reason for them to do that; just make them put the damn credits on the damn card like they’re supposed to. They’re going to need to take the actual credits anyway at some point, so they might as well do it immediately, like it says on the card.
As for the actual article: why are you using Quandary over Enigma in an RP deck? Enigma seems to be the golden grail of RP ICE: cheap, ends runs, can’t bounce off harmlessly if it’s on a central.
I can accept this as point of view. I don’t agree with it, but I can accept it. What I have a problem with is the comparison of using dice with angle-shooting. That clearly implies a degree of intentional dishonesty or seeking advantage on the part of any player using dice which I think is unwarrented on either side of this debate.
[quote=“TandooriChicken, post:63, topic:1569”]
Specific example, in form of question: which is easier, to set a d20 to a wrong number or to make a 1.25" plastic chip disappear or appear magically?[/quote]
Why use D20s when D10s are perfect for the purpose and are harder to knock over?
Since you asked (allbeit rhetorically), this is why I think it’s easier to cheat/make mistakes with chips:
A dice is a single focal point. It clearly shows a number. There can be no mistake about what that number is, whether that number has changed or not and by how much. Yes it can be changed very easily (by mistake or otherwise) but the fact it has changed cannot be concealed.
Chips are multiple focal points. They don’t present a number, but have to be counted. Not only is it easy to change the number of chips, but it is possible to conceal the fact that the number of chips has changed. They can be obscured behind each other. Their placement can be ambigious (“oh I must have knocked this off my ID card”). Denominations can be mixed up. Piles can be of different heights. They can be concealed around someone’s person and added to a pile. When someone picks up some chips from a supply an extra one can be accidently or “accidently” added to it and it won’t necessiarily be apparent.
The idea that you’re going to make all of your centrals a pain to bounce off of is a big misperception about RP. Ideally, yes, they’re all a pain, but getting the right ICE on the right server always is more important than making sure they can’t bounce for free. The ability to hurt the runner with ICE is more important when there is unrezzed ICE; the threat of damage is actually more powerful than the ability to actually deal it, (I have 3 unrezzed central ICE and play a Mental Health Clinic while you have no breakers out scenario). Enigma is fine, and gets better if people start cutting Yog.0 because of Lotus Field. However, at the time of the tournament, Yog was easily the most popular decoder still. Quandary and Enigma are equally harmless when facing down Yog. I wouldn’t fault anyone for playing Enigma, but in my experience, Quandary is, on average, significantly better in basically everything (pre-upstalk) than Datapike and Enigma. Now that Upstalk is out, it’s a metagame call.
The goal with the cheap EtR ICE is to use it on centrals only to defend from Siphon or force a breaker out. Most of the time it’s there to defend Sundews, which usually get run on the last click anyway, or protect you from Inside Job, in which case you just want the ICE to be as cheap as possible.
I use the default tokens and put them in stacks of 5. My opponents do periodically ask me how tall my stacks are, but otherwise it’s only a problem when I’m sitting on 30 credits, since I usually stick with the stacks unless I actually make 5+ credits at a time.
I don’t have a preference going against either dice or tokens. That being said, it all depends on how the person represents their credit pool. If they just have a mountain o’ credits, it’s going to be a pain, but rows of five are fine. Likewise, using d6’s and only going up to five, and making sure you manipulate left-to-right or something is a whole lot easier than that guy who has 2 dice set to 4, 1 die set to 3, and another die set to 6.
Pretty much, what I’m saying is, no matter your preference for representing credits, make it clear to the other player what your credits are. This game is hard enough without any obfuscation of credit, virus counter, etc. count.
He’s probably from the area, I remember him at the Six Feet Under Store Championship where I could hear him from across the room.
I didn’t catch those comments he was making, but that’s a pretty bad message to send. Redcaps is literally the store we play at every week and I’ve never seen him there before. I can however say for certain that everyone that plays regularly at Redcaps was really excited for the chance to play against some of the best players in the country.
I use credit tokens, and keep them visible and unstacked, sorted by denomination. I want a clear view for myself, and if I won because of obfuscation, I really didn’t.
I keep my credit tokens neatly arranged in 5-wide groups along the top of my playmat, close to my opponent so they can easily see. I’ll stack 'em two-high if they let me get that much dough, though (Iain & CI say hi) :).
Dice are easy to bump/get jostled in the confined space of a tournament.
Man, I don’t like it when people pile tokens / dice / broken egg bars on their ID. STOP MAKING DISORGANIZED HEAPS OF STUFF I NEED TO COUNT, YO!
@bayushi_david: I guess we will have to agree to disagree re dice vs chips. The use of the phrase “angle shooting” may have been a bit harsh, although I intended it more as “increasing the opponent’s cognitive load through non-game-state-related means.” If people are doing that intentionally, that’s angle shooting in my opinion. Since there can be no unintentional angle shooting by definition, I should have more clearly distinguished that as an alternate possibility rather than describing it as “‘soft’ angle shooting.”
I use 5-credit tokens + 1d6 to keep track of the remainder. People tend to find it confusing, unfortunately.
I think ideally I would use paper but I have no idea if that is legal or not (i.e. if I write down “+2 credits (security testing)” is that a memory aid?).
Dude - this is pretty ludicrous. You may not like using dice (many don’t), but they are actually more clear in many instances. I use dice that are very clear, never go over 5 on the pips, and is generally much better than those that just throw creds in a big pile.
Anyway, not trying to jump on you, but it’s not fair to say people that use dice are being opaque about their credit totals. Just not true.
Congrats on your win! I was the guy from Pittsburgh in the shaper shirt. The tournament was really well run and everyone was super cool and supportive - also the nearby pizza was pretty awesome too. Looking forward to heading back there during the store championship season!
Congratulations! and wonderfully romantic write-up
Made me nostalgic as I did my first regionals at Redcap’s, coming in top 4
(although this year, being in southern California, I was too distant to attend any)
Last year at Redcap’s half as many attended: 40-something instead of 80-something. Corey who is in your second photo spectated my game.
I’m really impressed how the game has turned around and offered a much greater deck diversity.
(actually I think there’s little difference regarding cheating, but in terms of keeping up with board state I find dice so much easier).