New: So this has basically just morphed into the NEH FA thread, so i changed the title, but I’ll leave the original topic below:
Post Clot NBN:
As one of the few people who thinks that the Astro Train is good for the game, I’m sorry to say that I’m of the opinion that Clot is going to be the end of NBN decks as we know them. I don’t think pure FA decks can add enough counterplay to Clot while maintaining other important aspects of their deck like adequate ICE or econ. I think that the nerf also hits NBN lists that aren’t just trying to train their way to the win. Decks like Traffic Accident/ Scorch NBN and Near pad and even Midseasons/Psycho rely on the threat of the train to force the runner to take risks. Without that, the runner can simply sit back and out econ the corp or sit and find their Plascretes or similar.
Now, I know that not everyone will be running Clot, but I think it’s a pretty safe bet that Noise will probbaly run 2 and most Shapers will run 1, making it reasonably ubiquitous. Criminal will almost certainly pass, and some other Anarchs might as well since they can’t find it all that easily, but Noise + Shapers will probably be making up 33-50% of any given feild, rendering your strats a lot more difficult to pull off a good amount of the time.
My question: Can we still play NBN and win? Can we do it in a way that’s not just a worse version of how other factions do it? Please brainstorm. Don’t let my favorite faction fade into forlorn feebleness.
Fast advance when you can, if clotted, it just stops into a remote just like everyone else has to. This has to be the only way. Run ash, herrings, whatever upgrades that cost money, money that the runner spent summoning clot. Bring back never advance in a taxing remote.
In this scenario they have to run through real ice like tollbooth, data raven, etc, beat an ash trace or pay 5cr to steal it, or gtfo, then deal with any tags along the way, and trash whatever upgrades are in the mix. Tag punishment becomes the way of the road. Not all of a sudden 15 tags like midseasons but constant tag tax like raven, benice, virgo, etc. Fast advance moves to punishment for runners not being aggressive/attacking FA cards (econ drag), or not slotting clot, rather than 100% of the strategy.
I just hope we see better tag punishment, even though barring clot 2 tags is enough for psycho, and with clot 3 is enough.
The key here is that with midseasons involved, the corp puts themselves in a win-win: either the astro-train leaves the station (i.e.; you score points) or you stop it with clot, spend money to break ICE and steal the agenda, then get midseasonsed (after which, you are dead or psychoed out.) These decks do not need the threat of scoring out of hand - in fact, it’s usually preferable to leave agendas on the table behind taxing ICE.
Never-advance still has a ton of play here as well, and NBN is the best at it (astro tokens and sansans mean you can never-advance NAPDS or even sometimes 3 point beals). The other thing to keep in mind is that Astro is such a versatile FA tool, that once you get a token or two, it becomes pretty easy to bait out clot with traps or assets, or simply play for windows beteen clots (even shapers will be hard pressed at times to keep clot on the table if it rapidly chews through clone chips and SMCs faster than they can draw them).
I don’t think there’s such a thing as a pure-FA NBN anymore, but there doesn’t need to be. between tagging and taxing, the Faction has piles and piles of top-quality cards and combos that they just simply haven’t needed until clot. I’m a big NBN lover here, and I’m excited that people will actually get/have to play the faction, and not just the three or four cards that have made it such a powerhouse so far.
I was working on what I call a tag drizzle deck that uses tags and traces to tax the runner. I think that if clot hoses NBN really bad (not sold on that) that that deck archetype will become a good focus, since it pairs so nicely with running remotes (playing a card/upgrade into a remote with Manhunt on with maybe Hunter or Viper guarding it means that the runner is going to be paying a lot to see that card. Sometimes it might be an agenda, while others it could be Chilo City grid and suddenly Viper is dropping tags, too).
If they’re clearing tags, they’ll be too poor to come into the remote every turn. If they’re floating them, you can use Psychographics to make them install clot every time you install any facedown.
Just noting here that you can’t use SanSan to try and get a 3 point Beale, since it lowers the advancement rather than putting extra advancements on an agenda, and Beale specifically says for every 2 advancements over 3.
Pretty much this. It’s adapt or die and with NBN I believe adaptation shouldn’t be terribly difficult. The faction gets the lion’s share of the good cards to an extent that is borderline stupid. Can’t imagine that changing anytime soon.
The idea behind Targeted Marketing is to have some kind of reliable econ engine to fuel the Ash trace but i’m not certain at all if it’s the right direction. I had good results but i’m uncertain if those results was because this list being good or me being better than my opponents.
Those 3 cards are the basis of every shaper deck I make nowadays - still, NBN has Information Overload, which can be extremely taxing, along with pop-up and RSVP. Many of NBN’s Ice other than Tollbooth also fold to Femme, like Data Raven and Flare, but you can only have 3 Femmes total, and most shapers I see only have 2.
I think a lot of people here are underrating how good clot is against FA strategies. Unless you have CVS, the thing doesn’t go away unless you Time Walk yourself. CVS also happens to take up valuable slots, whihc is the main problem I’ve found in fighting clot. On top of that, NBN is probably the faction least well suited to building and defending a remote as it probably has the worst econ cards over a long game and is competing for the worst ICE. Ash seems necessary since Red Herrings is kind of a joke (doesn’t let you leverage any money advantage you might have) but that chews through a good portion of your influence that you probably have to spend on ICE and econ.
@Calimsha , your deck looks like it will have trouble competing in the late game since all the ICE bar Tollbooth is pretty meager, and as @bblum points out, a single Femme (you don’t even need TR -> Scavenge) can ruin your day. @hhooo and I tried Targeted Marketing before Worlds and we were unimpressed even when we knew our opponent’s entire deck list. When we didn’t know it was basically just gambling.
@voltorocks , Midseasons demands that you maintain a sizable money advantage over the runner in order to pull it off and the runner economy is stronger than the corps right now. Before the corp could get around this by threatening the Astro train. Then the runner has to spend all sorts of money making repeat runs, mostly hitting nothing trying to stop you from winning. But if they can disrupt your train without spending loads of cash on runs, suddenly they have a lot longer to build up their reserves unmolested and leave you in a position where you can’t win. I’ve played a lot of Midseasons and of the games I’ve won probably 45-55% of them were just from training out. Denying this option kills the deck. You can’t win a tournament off the back of Midseasons alone.
Caveat emptor here: I haven’t played enough over the past year to be very familiar with the current metagame.
That said, back in the day when I think I could’ve said with a straight face that I was the best NBN player in the game, I used my Astroscript tokens for ammunition for tag punishment (giving myself an extra click on Breaking News) more than I used them for chaining Astroscripts, and I almost never rezzed SanSan. Not being able to score on my turn really wouldn’t have put me out that much during that time with my Never Advance deck.
That doesn’t automatically mean that Never Advance will be a good archetype right now, because there might be other reasons why it would or wouldn’t work. But for what it’s worth, Clot wouldn’t have been more than an annoyance. Legwork and Emergency Shutdown are both way worse for NBN Never Advance.
Sentry (3)
3x Architect(Up and Over) ••••• •
17 influence spent (max 17)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to All That Remains
I’m not opposed to going back to the old strategy of throwing stuff behind a Data Raven/Eli remote and seeing what they run. Midseason was the counterpoint to that, maybe just 1 copy or so would actually still be good enough.
Not sure if SanSan is still an auto include, but it’s still absurd against Crim, even if just for the Siphon defense.
Sub Boost on a Data Raven is also positively delightful. Hmm.
I think Astrobiotics will be dead, but I don’t think Astrolight will be.
With Biotic Labor, SMC into Clot is easy.
Corp install, Advance, Biotic - Runner SMCs Clot in the paid ability window before subsequent advancements.
With Trick of Light, SMC Clot is more difficult.
Corp install, Advance - Runner SMCs Clot in the paid ability window before the Trick of Light. Corp rezzes Reversed Accounts, pops it, and the runner is down 7c.
I’m not sure that Reversed Account shenanigans will work “in the field”, but they are something I am eager to experiment with.
