Yeah, I don’t know how the Dredge analogy works, @Calimsha, when you yourself say you’ve got a very strong game against NEH without clot, and argue that runners in general can have strong NEH games if they plan their setup correctly. On the Criminal side, I’ve not really had any issues with Leela against NEH since I run Medium and Leela gives me the time I need to exploit it. If it were Dredge, wouldn’t players have a hard time keeping up without their silver bullet? And wouldn’t the presence of the silver bullet nail the NEH decks into the ground? I saw you talking about your 90% win rate but one player does not a global problem make. NEH seems to survive against good Kate Clot players, and non-Clot players have been able to beat NEH. This sounds healthy, doesn’t it?
I think at the highest level, NEH FA shouldn’t win more than 10% against savy Kate players (read: who don’t gimp themselve by playing ProCon). Leela is another beast: Her matchup against NEH is as strong as her matchup against RP and glacier in general is terrible which make her a terrible meta-call right now with a third of the field bringing NEH and the other two third going totally on the opposing direction. The thing is, it’s way easier to preps against glacier/slow deck than against fast rush/fa deck. So depending of how much Kate can keep NEH at check by #slottheclot, the performance of NEH (and the rest of the field against NEH, really) is going to be a coinflip. Nobody want a metagame as volatile, especially if a single card is responsible of that.
Also, I’m pretty sure that any strong Kate player should have this kind of winrate against NEH if they #slottheclot (Hi @spags)
My SC win deck had two spear boys in it, and they did a ton of work in RP for me. Very interesting out of NBN.
I think it’s the best beefy barrier right now. Even with NEH’s built-in draw power, I’m wondering if it’s harder to keep the full 5 cards in hand that you want. To truly tax out a Lady you need to make the runner spend 3 counters.
Random thought: How about replacing Eli with Viper? Viper is a code gate which helps tax Cyber Cypher, it costs the runner just as much or more than breaking Eli with Corroder and It’s str 4 so it’s less vulnerable to yog/parasite/refractor. You still have wraparounds to force out the refractor so you don’t need to double up on barriers espeically if everyone is running lady and Eli is not doing it’s job of taxing the runner.
Downside is that it’s more porous than Eli and the runner can ignore the first subroutine if they run last click. Unlike Eli, the runner can afford to just pay 2-3 and still win the game while clicking through Eli is rarely a good move against NEH.
I’m really hoping that the other counters to FA (soft and hard-ish) manage to stabilize things more. I don’t think Clot is intended to be the only thing keeping NEH in check, but FFG always underestimates how conservative the ANR playerbase is at the competitive level (because, y’know, wanting to win more than just try stuff for because).
Drive By will help a bit with killing SanSans and Blacklists and the like without huge econ hits. Noise’s Console might help with screwing around with the scoring windows and making Astro/Astro/Beale/Breaking News less reliable a pattern. Film Critic won’t really do much, (though it’ll make NAPD less of a pain, which I guess might hurt a little bit), but I do think that Haarpsichord coming out will lure some people away (particularly if Franchise City is as great for Haarpsichord as spoiler-ken thinks it will be).
Fan Site and Spoilers might help a bit against FA decks, too, but the decks that want 'em seem unlikely to be huge, unless there’s another runner “forfeit an agenda” card coming up soon or mill sees some other kind of incentive. Though in conjunction with other things, maybe that’ll be enough anyway.
Either way, some other stuff is coming that NEH might not enjoy having on the scene so much. Even just in Chrome City, Immolation Script has some serious potential for pain to NEH’s protection, I feel like, to say nothing of what NRE might do to most taxing options.
Though they also get Little Engine, and FA seems like that deck that would most like a big gear/credit check that’s not expensive once they can get in – that’s the point of Wraparound, isn’t it? And then there’s Quicksand for a slow increase in strength on R&D or HQ that’ll eventually make most any fracter sad.
Has anyone at all tried Traffic Jam? I know it’s been pann’d but wondering if anyone has any experience with the card in their deck. Seems like it would be annoying to HB in particular.
Nope. I’m willing to try it in theory, but I’m the only local that plays NEH at all, pretty much. Maybe it’ll see more use if Criminal doesn’t get another current but currents become a thing that actually need to be run. Maybe. I like the idea a lot, and Noise’s Headphones has some potential to rearrange things to make it more hard-hitting in more matchups (as even against 5/3 glacier you can rearrange the ones they have in their scoring area), but it still seems marginal in terms of benefit because it doesn’t count things you’ve stolen (though that’d probably be TOO good). Even then, it’s not like Headphones will be splashed much, and Anarchs already have the best runner currents if they do end up being necessary things.
But if I were in an FA-heavy meta, I’d definitely at least give it a shot, just to confirm. (Though I think it has the same problem Predictive Algorithm does, it makes scoring through to break the current harder… but once they do score something, it’s gone.)
Stop being an instigator.
Who am I kidding right?
Has CVS been effective in curbing clot at all? I see it slotted into comp decks all the time, and I can imagine it being quite good at working against sucker parasite spam. Do yall run CVS in your nbns?
1 CVS, 2 Blacklist.
ahh the 'get that the fuck outta here, and keep it out" combo.
So how are you guys faring against Noise? I’ve gotten completely wrecked by my friend’s Noise, playing the anti-clot Space NEH that @apeasylum won with, with some slight modifications. In theory it should have some pretty nice utility, but even when I found my jacksons and the blacklists, and was able to keep them alive for a couple of turns, the wyldsyde/aesops with the mills, plus his 3 imps, just destroyed me.
I’m thinking of upping the ice count, and ofcourse lotus fields… But the Noise builds now are so fast and so disruptive.
He was playing 2 clot even, but it really wasn’t the clots that held me back so much as milling and imping.
Rush early game through 2 ices deep remote, preferably with one of them being wraparound.
Fun fact: you are not forced to play FA if you don’t need to.
Also breaking news into closed account / trash Aesop is also something who outright win you the game against Noise.
yes probably, thanks… also thinking about if a non-space version can be better as well, enabling lotus fields and architects. I’m expecting lot of datasucker/parasite action.
Non-Space ICE version are usually stronger against Crim/Anarch. Space ICE are only a bit better than Eli / Architect / Lotus against Shaper but not by a huge margin. I’m almost certain that the double biotic / Triple Architect is still probably the best NEH deck around.
What do you think about the list that won the Atlanta regionals? (1 biotic, 1 crick, 1 lotus, triple architect).
I’m maybe wrong but I think the result is more likely linked to the skill of the pilot (Zach Cavis is obviously one of the best netrunner player in the US) than to the deck itself. Crick is interesting but paying 3 inf for a card you probably won’t see half of your game isn’t something really appealing to me. I’ll rather play 2 biotic so I don’t give up too much on the Non-clot matchup.
From what I gathered (mostly from the stream) the runner field was mainly stealth andy, and slower shaper decks. He said, iirc, in one of the two interviews he was in on stream, that he’d pretty much had a breeze with the corp, winning before the opponent was setup properly. I can recommend the vods from the tournament Twitch (they show two of Zach’s game in elimination rounds I think, one in brackets and one in grand finals)
The streamers did a great job with the production btw, the best Netrunner livecast I’ve watched yet.
Normally, NEH should perform really well in this kind of environnement. Power draw Kate + either double legwork / double indexing or clot is what reliably beat NEH (all version).
But i’m also pretty certain that a double biotic would have done better. Mostly because he would also be faster.
Yes I think I played that today too and I also got wrecked. I think any NEH deck would get ruined. He was just using Clot as Econ But kept it out when he needed too. Glad I didn’t play Noise on the day lol
Just as a note, I did the 2nd of these against @Dragar and still lost the game. Admittedly, I was unfortunate on the mills, but it’s not an outright win by any means.