Originally published at: TheBriarfox’s Spaces Between Set Review - StimHack
Discuss the latest set review, this time from @TheBriarfox.
“After all, they go poof when you score and this could go a fair way toward helping you do exactly that.”
I think this misunderstands Currents. If the Runner steals an agenda, the Runner’s Current is not trashed. Only of the Corp scores one. And vice-versa for Corp Currents. Just a note.
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Yeah, currents only go away if the other player makes off with agenda points. You can keep doing it all day long, no problem.
I also feel like you sell Heinlein Grid pretty short. Clicking through Eli is a pretty common thing to do, put Heinlein behind that and the runner is broke. Ash can’t be broken, NAPD can’t be stolen, Punitive is all the more likely to end them, and Heinlein itself can’t be trashed (unless you’re Whizzard or have Imp). Makes a scoring server that’s currently protecting an Adonis all the nicer, and, again, makes running R&D repeatedly all the more draining if the runner is clicking through (or bumps into Enigma/Viper unexpectedly on the way in).
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Keep in mind, though, that you have to rez heinlein before the runner clicks through a bioroid, so realistically, unless you put them between a rock and a hard place, (ichi 1.0), they’re not going broke clicking through bioroids.
If people are breaking bioroids for money, or letting them end the run, that’s often a win.
This is true. My perception might be warped a bit because Deadcoats is a thing locally and this makes it much more dangerous – click through the ice to steal an agenda and you seal your fate (Punitive has a much easier time murdering you when you have no money), pay your way through and be too broke to survive the next scoring window. If it’s in HQ/R&D, then locking those becomes much harder, and spending money to see agendas still raises the risk of death.
Not saying it’s the best card in the pack or anything like that, but I feel that it rates a solid C, buuut the pack as a whole has lower grades to mark that they’re not as powerful as Upstalk, so I do understand the reasonig, even if I think it’s better than the review lets on. (Admittedly, outside of HB it’s almost entirely useless, too.)
If all you did was trade your $3 for their $3 and make them pay through a Bioroid or two, this card wasn’t worth the slot. Unless you’re actively ‘getting’ people, you can’t justify giving up the space when it could have been an Ash, which is pretty much always awesome as long as you have ICE on the table.
I don’t think the card is terrible, I just think its not good enough.
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That’s fair. I very well might change my mind when I see it in play. Heinlein as a surprise rez (before they encounter an Ice like Heimdall they want to click through) still seems like the best overall play, though. Do you let this hit and hurt you, do you spend all your money breaking what you thought you could click through, or do you lose your money by clicking through as intended? Combine with ELP to waste more of their resources in the process!
Might be a bit pie-in-the-sky, upon further reflection. Fair point on the space, as well, I’m getting better at remembering opportunity costs but still get distracted from time to time.
I think you (edit: BriarFox) are hugely underestimating Heinlein Grid. Specifically you didn’t mention one of the best cards for it: Ichi 1.0. Forcing the runner to choose between their programs and their credit pool seems great, and if they choose to lose their credit pool then you might get to tag+brain damage them for almost-free. You also did not mention Viktor 1.0. I agree that it’s not actually that great of a card, but D+ is overly harsh.
Ichi is a nice case. I also like it with enigma- an early facecheck by criminals with a faerie could end up costing them all their money. The big questions is whether the combination of admittedly somewhat edge-case uses adds together into a card that pulls its weight often enough. Only time will tell, I imagine.
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Interesting review. I definitely disagree with some things (I’m not sure if Lotus Field is even a B card, much less an A), but having more perspectives on the site is always good.
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Seems like Information Overload was meant for Making News/Midseasons deck as an alternative to Data Raven, which becomes toilet paper once the runner is tagged for good. IO is still expensive to Femme. A tag-me runner can ignore Raven but at least they have to Parasite IO down. In HQ it is a soft-counter to Siphon, since the trace fires in encounter and you don’t always have SanSan on table.
Is it box fodder? Dunno. Meant for a very specific deck, though.
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Good review. I think I agree with the B for ELP, but I dislike it as a card enormously. It is a painful, fun-sucking monstrosity out of Replicating Perfection and it’s not much more interesting out of HB Glacier. Work compression when it forces difficult choices on the runner is fine - when it just makes them unable to do anything at all, that’s a different matter. I also think Targeted Marketing deserved a B simply because of the enormous disruption it provides to core runner strategies.
As a general point, I think the a-symmetry between the runner currents (the best of which are the equivalent of surge and cyberfeeder out of Kate) and the corp ones is a bit of an issue.
I’m on the fence about Heilein. Thing is, I don’t see where it fits into a deck. Taking ASH out is not an option and Dead Coats struggles for room as it is. Running the Foundary frees up a few ICE slots, but your economy takes a 20-30 credit hit per game.
Information Overload I think is underrated. Yes, it only works in one deck (Midseasons), but it’s a brutal way to close out a game in that deck. Once they have six/seven tags, any face-down ICE becomes potentially game-ending unless they have access to instant parasites. Sure it’s not more than a one-of, but it’s pretty brutal to have out there.
D4V1D I’m finding interesting. It’s ability to get you through Grim and Archer is invaluable, but I have the sense that it plays better out of Shaper (who can instant-tutor for it and recur it really easily) than Anarch. It also interacts badly with Scrubbed and Ice Carver, which is frustrating (as does Atman incidentally, because Quandary becomes unbreakable).
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I’m pretty sure this is intentional and made to compensate for the fact that runner has more free deckslots than Corp does (generally), so Runner can run currents more easily without making hard cuts. Further, tons of runners are already using Same Old Thing, whereas Archived Memories is less common.
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Indeed. It appears that I did indeed misunderstand the scoring trigger on the currents. I read it is evaporating when any points were scored, rather then just by your opponent. On the one hand, I somewhat underestimate their resilience because of it. Not dissipating when you score does indeed create some new opportunities and offer increased versatility. On the other hand, it really doesn’t, especially on the Corp side. Sure, it’s not impossible to pitch a no-hitter and lock the runner out from scoring, but again, all that needs to happen to make it go away is for another one to be played (see above comments about SOT). While I underestimated their resilience, I also concurrently underestimated their popularity, and the more common they are, the less effective they will be. From a grade point perspective, I don’t feel like it alters much, since the misunderstandings cancel each other out.
Beyond that, @mediohxcore sums up my feelings about the set well:
“I don’t think the card is terrible, I just think its not good enough.”
There are a lot of really cool effects and useful cards in this set, but even the best among them seem quite niche, or at the very least very inefficient.
Look at Heinlein Grid, the card everyone really wants to love, but look at it honestly piece by piece. 3 credits isn’t a ton of cash, but it’s a turn’s worth of clicking for them (or more then half the net gain of Restructure, if you want to look at it that way). It’s also an asset, which means you have to play the rez timing window game, creating a strong possibility your “surprise” will go to waste. Furthermore, it’s just too damn variable. Stick it in front of an Eli. You rez that and Eli same run, you just paid 6 credits to make me say “okay, I bounce off”. Put it in front of an Ichi. Who says I even have programs to trash? And If I’m going to lose credits either way, I might as well just dump them into beating a potential trace and take your pool down too. You’re jumping through all these hoops to set up this potential for an effect (that may or may not even be relevant, i.e. Nasir) that you could just as easily handled and more efficiently with SEA-CA. And I mean, sure, they lose credits, but this doesn’t actually stop the runner in and of itself, and if they are sailing in for the game winning score, who cares about credits?
Like I said. Your mileage with the tools provided in this set will vary widely based on whether or not you actually need them. If Siphon is the bane of your existence, then Sealed Vault is like manna from heaven. If it’s not an issue, then Sealed Vault is probably going right in the box, despite being a perfectly playable card. Targeted Marketing is another prime example. It’s effect is awesome, if it triggers. But between the fact that it’s current and the fact that the runner has to actually play the card to trigger the effect, you have to ask yourself if this is efficient or effective enough to include over something else. I feel that, regardless of the card you’re looking at in this set, 70% of the time the answer will probably be “no”.
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The value of Targeted Marketing isn’t the money, because few runners will give that to you. The value is in disrupting the runner.
I’m one of those guys who really wants to love Heinlein Grid, so I’ll reply to what you said above.
Firstly, why would anyone rez their Ichi if you had no programs? You shouldn’t talk about fringe cases as if they are the norm. Secondly, as far as I’m aware Ichis tend to be placed in front of ETR ice so that you ETR on the next ice if the subs fire. So if you’ve no programs you can forget about that “game winning score”.
Secondly, aside from Ichis or Enigmas, it is very useful for Stronger Together because it makes Viktor 1.0 much more playable. It will be a 3 rez cost strength 4 code gate which you have to choose between losing all your credits or taking a brain damage and ending the run. Before that it was just click once on facechecking to avoid the brain damage, and twice if you want to get through to the server behind. Plus it means you can no longer discount your runs by clicking through my Bioroids on a Heinlein Grid server which is great news for a Stronger Together deck seeking to tax the runner with Bioroid ice. Plus it negates E3 implants against bioroids.
Once you score a False Lead and you have a Heinlein in your remote you are basically saying “I get to score my next agenda cause either you spend two clicks and I forfeit False Lead to make you end your turn or you run on your first or second click and then I forfeit False Lead on you during the run to make you lose all your credits and be unable to access anyway”.
Situational card? Yes. But more useful than you give it credit for. It’s really more for Stronger Together to make the less common Bioroid ice more playable than it is for HB:ETF.
Heinlein grid isn’t about efficiency, it’s about tempo. There’s a big difference between a runner clicking into your remote vs spending a truckload of money - one can open a scoring window next turn, and one doesn’t.
Agreed. I’m not sure exactly where to rate it… i’m not sure straight ratings really do justice to cards anyhow. I realize that the one thing i like about the card (that it cramps people into making uncomfortable decisions that are difficult to evaluate) is what people probably feel is weak about it. There’s usually more perceived value in abilities that simply restrict or take away choice from their opponents. But boo to that.
Heinlein is an odd card. I had some success with it in testing and in the same match-up with more or less the same board position it was close to useless.