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Weyland: How Bad Is It Right Now?

I vehemently disagree. The Snares are no good in hand because the runner never needs to look there against Weyland. Weyland (under normal circumstances) can’t fast-advance; so they’re either scoring through a remote or playing a Hostile Takeover from hand once drawn. The runner is very unlikely to strike gold in HQ, so needs to hit R&D pretty hard. That’s where the Snares need to be - followed up with False Leads to prevent the runner shifting the tag or replenishing cards. That’s why Indexing is such a big card against Weyland.

The beauty of Weyland is that an over-advanced Atlas lets you search for cards - which means you can fish out a combo piece on demand, or the winning Hostile Takeover at match point. Weyland’s strength is in the double threat. It just wants to push through the agendas to make the runner move when he isn’t quite prepared to do so. If the runner doesn’t take the bait then Weyland is nearer the finishing line, if they do there is a counter-attack waiting.

If you’re looking for a Snare kill from hand then it’s no wonder your deck isn’t working. Get Jackson down and draw through to put them back into R&D.

I’ve seen a very good Weyland BABW deck piloted by an excellent player in the UK - runner up at two Regionals. That deck has kill threats, agenda threats and a Power Shutdown / Accelerated Diagnostics combo that can win either with a fast-advanced agenda using SfSS or SEA-Scorch kill. I don’t know how well that will do when the shards hit the environment, but at the moment it’s very much alive and kicking.

I think Weyland does badly at the moment partially because of a lack of popularity. As @Kingsley says, it’s out of fashion a bit - particularly as players are trying the new Jinteki stuff and an insane new NBN identity. I think there’s also an element of knowing how to play against them in the knockout rounds. Finally, I think they’re a bit of a blunt instrument for a lot of people - they’re pretty easy to get your head around “straight out of the box”, so they might actually be appealing more to the weaker players who perhaps don’t want to think quite so much. But in the right hands they’re still a force to be reckoned with.

Ninjaed by @SyntaxLost :stuck_out_tongue:

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I’m not gonna say that Weyland is as strong as the other corps atm but I still think Supermodernism is a solid tier 1.5 deck who shouldn’t be ignored. A good player can still do work with it. The style of play of this archetype is just counter-intuitive for a lot of players (a huge remote fort and lightly protected centrals where you rush agenda behind instead of making your centrals secure/taxing enough before making a scoring remote) and it’s in my opinion the main reason why Weyland is shunned atm.

This. So much This. I’m just going to be a d*ck about it, lol.

@Calimsha took Weyland damn near all the way, as did I, in 2 of the largest if not THE two largest regionals of this season so far. Colorado had a decent Weyland showing too, by the look of it. Aaaaand Seattle. So I’d hardly say it’s flopping at regionals. While I can’t speak for my counterpart above, for me the Corp side wasn’t the issue that day either. In the past several weeks, people in my meta have gotten tired of Jinteki and we’ve seen a resurgence of Weyland, everything from classics like SuperM and Big Ice, to off the wall jank like Horizontal Econ/Shell Game BWBI (that was…something). Most of it fares well enough, too.

But that’s the point.

The problem isn’t Weyland. The problem is You (the royal you).

Now before I rail any harder against your failures as players, really as human beings in general (prepare for belittling commentary about your paternity and state of unwash!), I should qualify slightly.

There have been a couple of nails that were hit squarely on the head. @Kingsley , @arkhon , @Alexfrog , @codewolf , and @syntaxlost are the Hammer Brothers.

While I won’t go so far as to say that decks like AstroTrain and Red Coats are easy to run, their lines of play, however, are comparatively simple and very clear. It is not that difficult to understand what they are supposed to do and the “right” way to do it, at least on paper. Not so much automatic, but certainly on rails, so to speak. Weyland is strong, but demands just as much strength from the player. You don’t play a Weyland deck so much as you truly pilot it. If NBN Astrotrain is a Ferrari, Weyland is a goddamn Jaeger. Not many can handle suiting up, but for those who can…
And, as mentioned, the slaghund numbers and other data crunches lend some creedence to this.

There is also the problem with stagnation. Multiple people have decired the fact that Weyland hasn’t gotten much by way of new toys, and I agree. The handful of stuff we have gotten has mostly been filling in holes and were things we should have had sooner. Most of the rest, especially the ice, was awful. GRNDL and the Refinery made a splash, but we just haven’t had the consistent hits this past cycle (JHow, AccDiag, BLue Level, Shock, Celeb Gift, Sweeps) like the other Corps.

Weyland is challenging to play, and it’s a challenge most players just aren’t up to. But is it necessarily their fault?

Only kind of.

On the one hand, if you flop a green corp and the air isn’t immediately filled with the scent of recently soiled shorts, you have room to step up your game. So much of Weyland is making the runner afraid of what might happen, and so many people miss that crucial piece. And you know what else? Damnit son, challenge yourself. I hate running NBN with a burning firey passion, but I still practiced playing it a bunch because that’s what you do to get better. You challenge yourself to do things you aren’t comfortable or well practiced doing. You climb that sh*t because it’s there. You say “You know what, everyone expects Snares. Let’s try Overwriter.” PVPKate wrecking your day? She can spend all that cash to get into a newly hired, charged up Aggressive Secretary. I always say, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. The converse is true too, and it’s getting to be tool time for Weyland.

But this is why I say only kind of blame players. I’m a JohnnySpike, to use the parlance of our times. Weyland and it’s invitation to innovate new ways to inflict wanton malicious destruction is enough to get me excited. When you take the stagnation into account, however, I can see why most other players DON’T get excited. Weyland in it’s current state DEMANDS innovation and experimentation, and even then we’re limited in what we can try at a time since many of the recent tempting new toys are splashed in from out of faction and 15 points evaporates quick.

The good news is that this cannot last, and, fortunately, we know it won’t. Even though all signs (and my money, for that matter) seem to be betting an Anarch/NBN deluxe xpac, the spoilers we’ve seen out of Upstalk and the like are nothing short of incredible. New ice, new events, new ambushes, and a whole new ID that I’m betting right now for the record is going to be The Hotness.

tl;dr : Weyland isn’t bad, you are. But it’s only kind of your fault for not undertaking what is right now a personally intensive labor of love and retooling a well trod field with new, limited options. Shame on you, lol.

Enjoy the Jinteki lull while it lasts. Mark my words. The new cycle is coming, and with it, a reckoning.

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Could you give an example of a board state that shows this kind of complicated challenging play style?

Also, do you mostly play live, or on OCTGN? I think Weyland is probably stronger in live play, where things like instant readouts of both players credit totals aren’t instantly available, the cognitive load is higher (got to track your clicks and counters yourself!) and mistakes are easier to make. It’s just a hunch, but it feels like a lot of the people that dislike Weyland are OCTGN regulars, whereas the people that like to play it play live more.

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I split 50/50. Its definitely stronger in live play because so much of piloting the W well leans on the interaction with your opponent, bluffs and reads and what have you.

Your opening hand is 2x Hostiles, a Bastion, Anon Tip, and restructure.
What do you do?

You have a chance to play/score out an over-advanced Atlas and fetch some toys, or you can drop an Overwriter in. What do you do?

And there is no right answer. That’s the point. SO many other decks have specific play lines to the point of almost being formulaic.

It’s less about existing board state, actually, and more about maintaining control when it comes to Weyland. You’re not reacting to the board so much as you are trying to control it from the outset and dictate as much as you can what the runner does. This requires a lot of “in the moment” decisions and analysis. It’s hard to illustrate with specific examples because almost everything factors in, from what you’re holding in your hand to HOW your opponent is holding his. No detail is unimportant. You’re playing the opponent as much as his board.

That’s the difference, I think. A lot of other corp decks give you direction. Weyland gives you options and leaves it to you to pick the direction, and God help you if you choose poorly. It’s a lot like StreetChess in that every click, every action counts. There is no “Well, I guess I’ll do x”. Shouldn’t be, anyway.

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I think, actually, this hits on a big part of why Weyland sometimes falls apart at the top tables: exhaustion. There’s a cognitive load there that isn’t as present with a looot of other corps – even if the decks are as powerful, the added mental stress makes the whole event more draining, and the Top X seems to be as much about staying awake as anything else once you’re there.

An anecdote that I’m sure more of y’all can relate to, my roommate lost one of his Top 16 games as runner because he saw an Ice play, figured it was a Rototurret, and then wound up facechecking it a minute later and losing one of his breakers because he forgot to play his Mimic first. He’s switched to a Red Coats variant now not because he likes Supermod less, but because he wants to see if the relative ease of play leads to better results in long series of games.

If this is the case, I think it really answers a good chunk of how Weyland can do so well outside of tournaments (anecdotally) but not as much within them (although, as mentioned, it’s not unplayable by any means). At least, beyond the “works well against less skilled players and poorly against good ones” argument which might be true but seems… iffy?

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You sir, speak truth.

New topic here, but people gotta take care of themselves at these things.

  • Get lots of sleep the night before
  • Don’t eat junk food
  • Snack throughout the tournament
  • Drink lots of water

It’s still a slog, but doing simple things to take care of your body will help your mind.

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Even so, when it’s 1 in the morning with rounds to go, you can only do so much. But separate topic, indeed.

You think Weyland presents a cognitive load? Try playing The Prof at a regional :smiley:

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Runner in general is more cognitively taxing – I’d imagine that’s especially true of the Prof, but I’ve never really seen it otherwise. There’s a lot more to keep track of and worry about, which is why I think the added load for Supermodernism might be so huge. The Corp often serves as a bit of a break, mentally, even when the games are super challenging. Not getting to have that break means that you need all the more rest. The one blessing is that SMod games tend to not be very long, one way or another.

You think Weyland presents a cognitive load? Try playing The Prof at a regional smiley

There’s ballsy and then there’s just masochistic, lol.

This is why I am so keen on finding games to watch, fwiw! I want to see what the difference is between an expert Weyland pilot and someone like me.

I’m still looking, too. I appreciated watching hoobajoo and CrimsonWraith’s games, but those were both lost by inexperience / poor play by the runner rather than anything intrinsic to a Weyland-specific strategy.

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Here’s my two credits as to why I think Weyland has the weakest cardpool relative to the other corps now.

Tennin Insitute is what BWBI should have been or BWBI should have given one free click to advance a card rather than a recurring credit to advance a card.

Weyland has no in-faction ambushes, it’s upgrades aren’t overly concerned with securing the server like Caprice or Ash.

A good chunk of Weyland ICE is janky as hell. I spend 7 credits to rez a Strength 4 ice that does absolutely nothing until it’s advanced, requiring Amazon Industrial Zone. Technically, its bad pub ICE is Swarm but most decks would rather use Grim. The underlying problem with Advancable ICE is those actions could be better spent advancing agendas. Especially since the Breaker suite du jour involves Datasuckers.

I will say Weyland got some nice toys in Spin Cycle, but Genesis cycle was a bad joke for Weyland.

I’m not saying other factions don’t have useless cards, but out of all of the corp factions Weyland got the rawest deal with cards in it’s own faction. Lunar cycle has some nice stuff on the horizon to be sure, but it really could use a deluxe box before NBN.

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All of this stuff applies to every other corporation as well. If Weyland somehow feels hard for you to play, it’s only because you are desperately trying to make due with sub-optimal cards.

Weylands strength is that it stomps anarchs, and when anarchs are underplayed, playing Weyland is a bad metagame decision.

They don’t call them scoring windows for nothing.

It’s cool if you like to play weyland and think it’s fun, but let’s not go all damon stone about it.

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Part of why Weyland isn’t doing as well as it used to is that nearly everyone is carrying around really good meat damage hard counters.

I wonder where Weyland would be at now if Deus X had been anti meat damage, and Plascrete Carapace anti net damage.

Does any other Corp have a neutral hard counter that is as good against one of its primary win conditions as Plascrete Carapace is against Weyland’s?

Deus X for meat damage would in many respects be better than Plascrete against Weyland, because you could tutor it out with SMC or pull it back via Clone Chip after getting hit by the first Scorched Earth. Further, it wouldn’t be “pierced” by The Cleaners in the way Plascrete Carapace currently is.

I’m not talking so much about Deus X for meat damage being strictly worse than Plascrete, so much as the influence cost and the MU sink making it less universally played, and less meta-defining for Weyland.

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Actually - I took The Prof to one of the Regionals I attended this year. Placed 5th, thus narrowly missing the cut to double-elim (which was just top 4 for some weird reason) on tie-breakers. Lost a couple games by 1 click or 1 credit, which I blame mostly on my lack of practice with him - I only started actively playing The Prof about a week before the regional, so I considered myself less than fully proficient with him, at the time of the tournament.

Truth is, he has a really good matchup against rushy NBNs, simply because he can tutor his RnD dig tools (if you’re playing Medium and Keyhole, that is), and is also packing tutorable HQ punishment (Sneakdoor, Nerve Agent, Imp).

In the tournament, quite a few of my opponents were happy about my obvious lack of Siphon, only to find out that a tutored and recurred Imp can be just as destructive.

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i’d be curious to see this decklist.

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I moved a post to a new topic: Professor: Running in Hard Mode