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What's wrong with this deck?


#1

I’ve this BS deck I really like playing, and it (at least on paper to me) looks quite strong. Still I haven’t yet managed to beat a good player with a decent deck. Normally my octgn winrate is at least 65%, but this deck, in different itterations, often falls just short. Either plain bad luck with runner digging, noise mill, hail mary r&d runs, whatever. Sometimes though I just see defeat coming from miles away.

Basic plan is to glacier up, milk melange or private contracts in main remote, bounce back when scoring an agenda, rince and repeat. Ash protects the remote with big bankroll, tollbooth is just soo good in BS (being ‘immune’ to femme), seeing hunter puts the fear of a burning house in a runners mind so they often don’t dare to run or waste time by plascreting up.

Still victory often escapes me, particularly when I can’t melange but need to rely on PC). So, could it be that PC is just a tad too inefficient? Basically it’s 1 click to install, 6 clicks to milk so costs 7 clicks for 12$ while it can also bait the runner. Pretty good deal in my eyes.

I tried with OAI and curtain wall and 5/3 agendas, but found it too unreliable. Tried restructures and while easy enough to fire, they weren’t really needed so got replaced by more ice.

Either way, what do you think of it (in particular about the PC plan). Is it too slow? Any tips to improve play or deck?

Blue Sun: Powering the Future (Up and Over)

Agenda (11)
3x Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead)
3x Corporate War (Future Proof)
3x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
2x Superior Cyberwalls (All That Remains)

Asset (9)
3x Melange Mining Corp. (Core Set)
3x Private Contracts (Cyber Exodus)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••

Upgrade (3)
3x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead) ••••• •

Operation (5)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
2x Subliminal Messaging (Fear and Loathing)

Barrier (10)
1x Ice Wall (Core Set)
3x Wall of Static (Core Set)
3x Bastion (Creation and Control)
3x Hive (Double Time)

Code Gate (5)
3x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••••• •
2x Datapike (Creation and Control)

Sentry (6)
3x Hunter (Core Set)
3x Caduceus (What Lies Ahead)

15 influence spent (maximum 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to All That Remains


#2

Melange is too click intensive. My last deck ran Executive Boot Camp to fetch a single Adonis and recur that for money. Curtain is just a strong OAI target even without pulling it back for early money. OAI on a single server can become a early scoring server. Hunter does nothing if you don’t have tag punishment. Going with Pri/Req on a good Hadrians/Curtain is also it’s own economy. Daily Business show has its uses here.


#3

economy is too light, and 3 ash is too much, especially granted the light economy. Melange doesn’t work too hot in the current meta, save for IG, especially with that agenda layout.

Use EBC to find 1-2 copies of ash and or adonis.

No kill condition, so breakers + money = win. No archer + hostile take over, so you can’t fast advance win. Runners are very good at ‘getting in’ especially mid game. Breaker trash is a must for decks that want to rely on ice to score agendas throughout the game.


#4

Won’t work for ash. EBC is only for assets, not for upgrades.

But yeah, he has a point. Adonis is way faster.


#5

EBC doesn’t find Ash.

Edit: Too slow!


#6

Although I haven’t tried it, I think prico is too slow. It amounts to slightly less than $2 per click, because of the click to bounce and replay it every so often. Compare to Adonis, which if you can make stick can be upwards of $9 per click only it’s one use per three turns. Plus I find a big part of playing blue sun glacier is judiciously repositioning your ice to punish the runner’s rig, which is pretty click-intensive. I can see running 1 or 2 pricos as a backup plan or as something to do with spare clicks while adonis is running, especially since aggro runner decks can play to keep you off adonis for a long time. But do run 1 adonis and 2 bootcamp.

The other thing is that, apart from tollbooth, all your ice sucks. Ice wall taxes for 1. WoS, hunter, pike, and cad tax for 2. Bastion taxes for 3. Your goal is to go late game, but your ice suite doesn’t support slowing down the runner’s accesses to give you enough time to win. That’s the reason I keep the OAI + curtain combo, even though it’s brittle – curtain is a good piece of ice, taxing corroder for 11 and lady for 7 and 2 counters. Ash is much better when both players are near-broke during the trace than when both players are rich, and big ice is how you make that happen.


#7

okay okay, point stands for adonis, and 3x ash is still to much.


#8

Deck looks plausible enough to me, except that I wouldn’t play Superior Cyberwalls. Blue Sun glacier is usually 8-9 agendas with the aim of winning with 3 scores. With this setup you need 4-5 scores, and has a higher agenda density. I guess the effect is nice, but Government Contracts and Priority Req give good effects too.

Your ice suite has a few more medium sized barriers than I would play, personally. Especially with Lady running around in every shaper deck, do you find yourself often happy with how the 3 wall of statics and 3 bastions are performing? I’d look for a bit more variety and taxation, maybe using Errand Boy, and squeezing out 1-2 influence to fit in Lotus Field, which is a huge pain for anarchs out of blue sun (less so with Order and Chaos).

And yeah, there are a few of the newer cards that might give you the edge in blue sun - Daily Business show is just good in everything, Boot camp + single Adonis is nice in Blue sun. Possibly cut 2-4 influence somewhere and look into those.

Oh and standard disclaimer: this isn’t something I’m playing much of at the moment =)


#9

I was playing 3 ash in my build until just recently. Works great in tandem with hive against crim, but I finally went back to 2 of him and 2 of tollbooth to be able to beat lady decks.


#10

My first iteration of the deck was 3x prior req, 1x hades, 2x napd, 2x atlas. The runner (and I) only needed 3 agendas to win. I just found it unreliable as almost each attempt to score gets announced (IA agenda) and a lot of tricks exist to get in for cheap (D4V1D, stimhack, …) In general I really like the 9x2, 2x1 agenda setup. Cyberwalls is a 1 pointer that gets me some $, makes ice a bit better, that’s still good when I score it twice and I don’t need to care much about copy #2 when the runner steals #1. The other agendas are either hard to steal, give me 7$ or can be bluffed as an asset, so overall I’m happy with them.

I realize adonis is quite good, still it seems easy to trash if it comes up at the wrong time. Also what do you do with your clicks while it ticks down? I don’t tend to draw a lot, as I often have enough ice and you can’t score agendas in an occupied remote. Drawing also gets agendas in play, so gives the runner more options to steal.

Win condition is an ash to protect a remote + money. So I have 3 in deck. Might be too much though. I try to keep the runner poor by making him run my scoring remote (Ash or napd can really make him sad). Normally only runners having Kati or Opus can keep up economically, as run based econ gets often shut down quickly.

Ice selection is all high strength, so parasite without sucker is about useless, while sucker tokens are expensive to come by. No lotus as I need my influ for jackson, ash and tollbooth. Especially tollbooth, won’t leave home without a full set :smile:

Hunter is really good as going tag me denies the runner Kati Jones, and it’s stronger than mimic. I’m practically never sad to see one, especially early game.

Many barriers as they are high strenth, quite good vs corroder, can attempt to overload lady and synergize with cyberwalls. but I’m not married to them, so open to other ice suggestions.

The moment I have a melange or PC, economy gets good. It’s not as explosive as OAI a curtain, but more reliable. I don’t think curtain is worth it’s price to rez for full price, but will definitely put it back in when orion comes out.

Thanks for all suggestions so far, keep 'em coming!


#11

I play 2x3 7x2. Clever use of atlas tokens makes it so the runner needs 4 to win while you only need 3. I haven’t tried it with 1 pointers, seems like it would favour more rush-oriented play.

There’s never a wrong time for adonis. Just hire interns in case it gets killed.

Put more ice. Play OAIs. Take mulligans with jackson. Have the interns bring Ash back. Play restructures.


#12

If anything I Jackson’d a trash Adonis and the retutored with another boot camp.


#13

Adonis easy to trash? What about those melanges you are running?


#14

Agreed. Melange is sort of kind of maybe going in my Next Design cheap ETR lol deck at the moment but struggling to find a happy home for it.


#15

Melange is good. It’s best in a glacier. @Cerberus has a ‘Deadcoats’ build (7 5/3 + 2 Domestic Sleepers I think) whose influence is 3 Jackson, 3 Booth, 3 Punitive Counterstrike in EtF. He talked about it on one of The Winning Agenda podcasts. Melange is a house because you get rich or the runner gets poor (getting there) trashing it. Like all asset economy, it’s best when you click it the second (and subsequent) time so you divide up the clicks you use drawing and installing the econ asset.

Another player in the UK (who I don’t think is on these forums) swears by Melange in RP. He wins a lot of games with that deck too.


#16

I played a lot with 3 Melanges in RP instead of Celebrity Gifts(I really hated this card, Melange is infinite and without showing your hand) and it was pretty good economy (no problem getting to over 40 creds), but slow. Works great after Siphons. 1-of Shinobi worked well to leverage this huge pile of money.
I don’t know why I went with the flow and changed to CG, maybe for diversity (6 econ assets, 6 operations).


#17

I think in Weyland there’s probably a case for GRNDL Refinery over Melange, simply because it’s more likely to provoke a run - and you need a runner to run into your remote, or you’ll just lose when they bank huge amounts of credits and wait for you to put something into the remote and advance it.

Melange is a lot of money all at once, but it’s nothing a runner can’t match - and frankly, for many decks, exceed, while furthering the gameplan (drawing cards and playing Lucky Find with Kate, or cycling Cache with Noise). And if you’re trying to outpace a runner, you have to be threatening to win the game. Money alone doesn’t do that.

I tried Melange in RP too, but R&D starts looking mighty thin with all the 1 trash cost Caprices and Melanges in there.


#18

I really like The Root in Blue Sun as a card to force runs on an expensive remote. Blue Sun can turn those recurring credits into real credits, especially if you start getting Executive Boot Camp triggers to go with it. Or you can durdle and spend your clicks and recurring credits stacking ice.


#19

I probably haven’t formulated well, what I really meant was that if you click for 1$ while adonis counts down, you lose some of the efficiency you gained. All other ways to spend clicks require the use of cards, and I don’t like to draw much as agendas usually come at a good pace, there’s ice enough in deck and I don’t need cards for econ.

In the few games I tried with 2x3 7x2, the runner still managed to score a 3 pointer. In theory I like the idea of using an atlas token to fetch a 3 pointer if there’s a window, in reality a good runner doesn’t leaves obvious windows, so it’s always a gamble. I feel it has lost me games more often than won.

I haven’t yet seen a runner who can reliably manage 28$ and 4 cards in 4 turns. Sure, melange slows you down, but it’s more efficient than drawing and playing a hedge funds. You can also reuse it with BS ability, which is huge.

Big disadvantage of the root + bootcamp combo is that it requires 2 remotes, so a lot of the econ gained just goes to the protection of this second server. Also getting the runner waste a click for a run and possibly getting hit by a nasty ice is not unimportant to slow them down a bit.

All that being said, I’m definitely going to try and give adonis (together with ops economy) a shot. Pretty sure it’s going to be more random, although might be on average more powerful.


#20

So, let me give you some of the basics on whats happening in blue sun, as I see it.

Previously, Blue sun was often able to OAI a curtain wall or other, and subsequently pick it up fast enough for this to be a great source of econ.

In my opinion, however, there are now so many good answers to barriers, and the runner getting faster that this mode of economy is deprecated. Additionally, barriers are still good, but losing some of the predominance they have had heretofore.

On the corp side, I’ve been playing a lot of blue sun - let me explain the core principles.

If OAI isn’t the preferred econ - what is?

Weyland has always had one unique avenue in that its agendas afford the opportunity to generate econ. While everyone is aware of hostile, corporate works very well in blue sun. So does Priority requisiting (if you are running large ice), badpublicity, and Geothermal Fracking.

Thats a lot of bad publicity, it is. Fortunately, Weyland is super well positioned to deal with it in the inimitable person of…: Ms. Mills. Generally with a stable game state, you will want to preposition her for a rez bounce / play/rez turn - clearing 2 bp. Ellie there are also a surprising number of good locations to trash - Earthside, Aesop, PW, Gene, wylsdie, duggar, NACH, Order of sol.

She truly is a wonder woman.

Now to the meat of the deck - the shell game.

Here are your pieces to make your runner’s day miserable:
EBC: Not 1. Not 2. 3.
Snare: Asset. Remember how everyone is including legwork…
The Root.
Action Jackson. Because he is just tooo good to leave out.
Mother Goddess
Hive
Wendigo
Archer
Grim
Security Subcontract
Wormhole

Honorable mentions/Optional components
Adonis
Private Contracts.
PowerGrid Overload.
Interns
Ash
Caprice
Himi
OAI/Curtainwall
Excalibur
Checkpoint.
So, how does the shell game work.

Well you have 2 or 3 powerful defenses.
a). Mother Goddess. Most decks are not sporting AI. Femme, atman, and parasite/ds are the most common replies to MG. Still, very strong piece of ice. Your goal is to use MG liberally on centrals until you need to score…

THEN BOUNCE IT AND MOVE IT. Jintecki plays agenda mindgames. You’re going to play -where’s my ice now mind games. MG. You’ll want 1 … or 2… or three.

But a game with one note isn’t much fun… Here’s the second bit.

Sooo… you’re down to a few cards - and the runner pops a legwork smirking.
Pop your EBC - and pull your snare to hand. More on that later.

So your runner trashes it … figuring hq is safe - runs again.
Pop your jackson and your ebc… and snare him again.

So… sometime after the 2nd time… runners think they get the hang of it. And they run R & D. So thats when you pop the kitsune - point to the snare… and it starts all over again.

Nothing runners like better than being tagged against Weyland. Your choice if you want to run Scorched…

Now, EBC is magic due to the ability to tutor jackson, mills, the root, but its other ability is even more important. It lets you rez ice on your turn. Sure - its a free credit (ECON!) but its so much more than that. Sure, rezzed ice is anathema to Leela and Naisir.

But it also lets you use your 3 credits on the root - so instead of earning 1 credit - you’re earning 4 - thats a free rez of Mother goddess for example. Which you can then pick up.

Since we’re on the topic of … the root. The root gives you two more important abilities.
Rez assets. So, everyone thinks that Adonis is the bee’s knees. And it is pretty darn good. But, for a quick pick me up - free rez a private contract - which has the advantage of being pretty resistant to being trashed (whizz excepted). Three credits for a throwaway click isn’t terrible.

But with the new constellation ice - each advancement via root - lowers the rez cost of ice by 3. 3x3=9 credits a turn… I’m still playing with a variant that will let me move the tokens away, so I can bounce for full… but thats another day.

So, some brief words about our sponsors.
Hive. Early Help. Flat out awesome.
Grim. You’re bouncing bp anyway. What’s one more? Especially since you can pop a wendigo in front? Or course, the same thing works for archer.

Wendigo also doesn’t screw with MG soo much since can choose Barrier/CG.

Now, you’ve heard me talk about how I think the meta is moving away from Curtain Wall, Bastion, Wall of Static, etc. Might as well make your runner friend blow a lady token on a icewall as a curtain.

So, this deck has liberal amounts of ice walls and quandries. Now…you may think the intent is for economy. And thats a nice side beneift. But theres one more huge benefit.

Subcontract lets you kill ice (as well as bounce it) so you can set up a scoring server FAST.

So for example Agenda: MG Himi.
Runner runs inside job. You rez himi - MG is now barrier… but you bounce Himi to hand - and MG goes back to being typeless.

Same thing works if you want to OAI a card in front of MG.

Finally, Himi also allows you to pad HQ when you have need.

Finally, wormhole. Now you can put kitsune on a remote by itself. or archves - or wherever you like. Rez it with ebc/root. Now every single wormhole can inflict 3 points of dmg and a tag. Excalibur is good for the same reason. And… did I mention wendigo?

So my decks are always pretty fluid. What follows is just an example of what I’ve been talking about. Feel free to modify it as you see fit.

My current line of thought is putting 3x hostile architecture, since the common answer to quandry and icewall is: parasite. Which by the ruling means the runner takes a net dmg.

But the even better reason is because of how often the runner will not be able to trash the snare. Always lovely.

One last note. My record is nailing my opponent 6 times with one snare. Can you beat it = ).

Weyland Shell 8b

Blue Sun: Powering the Future (Up and Over)

Agenda (11)

Asset (15)

Operation (8)

Barrier (6)

Code Gate (2)

Sentry (5)

Other (2)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to All That Remains

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.