I don’t think I really understand the objection. How is this significantly different than:
Draw a card (this is your first draw of the turn, but SymVis is not installed, so you don’t get a credit).
Install the SymmVis you just drew.
Draw a card (this is not the first draw, so SymVis doesn’t trigger).
Especially given the relative power level of Jeeves (see: the rest of this thread for combo-tastic FA adventures on top of the bonus clicks over the normal course of the game with minor adjustments to your lines of play), I don’t really have any objections to a ruling that makes him difficult to use the same turn he’s installed.
I’m not sure I follow your comment. I totally agree that BBG + Adonis/Eve is great. However, in the current meta, Eve basically sets you back if you rez without BBG, and so it slows your economy down if you wait for both. The deck list I posted is a modified version of @StephenBall’s ETF list, which uses Restructure, Adonis, and Corporate Sales Team (supplemented by ETF’s ability) for the primary economy engine.
I added 2x Advanced Assembly Lines in mine to try it out, but in some of the games I play I’ve gotten by just fine without them. It basically is another Hedge Fund that can be used to bait a run if you really need it to. I just subbed it for Jeeves, which makes a glacier/FA hybrid Foodcoats list even better. Now with Jeeves in my scoring remote and Biotic in hand, I can score a 4/2 from hand, or a 5/3 from hand with Biotic and 1 Vitruvius counter. I like having more options.
I’ve tried out this deck a couple times now (one of @CodeMarvelouslists). I’m not very good with it, but it was a lot of fun to play with.
One issue is the Architects aren’t as scary as they are in Foodcoats. There is no resource econ, but a lot of operations, meaning there are relatively few targets for the Architect to install, and not a lot to recover from archives. There were many times when I didn’t have a good target for at least one of the subs, which really takes the sting out of the ICE, and makes the influence cost seem less great.
I didn’t have a problem with the ICE suite at all. There was plenty of ICE to protect servers, and cheap enough to rez on the slightly lighter econ.
Jeeves + Subliminal Messaging + Doubles is pretty cool. You can install, SfSS and subliminal to FA an agenda, that will force the runner to hit your ICE a lot (unfortunately, this is how my opponent realized that my deck had limited targets for the architect). If you have a subliminal in hand, the corp can essentially play any double as though it were a normal operation.
I need to play more games, but I’m not feeling great about Architect, aside from it being untrashable. If Errand Boy were untrashable, I’d be slotting that instead.
It’s not an obnoxious ruling. The trigger is not “the third time you do X” but rather “the first time you do X three times”.
That is to say (I think) that it’s the first time we have a trigger that occurs across a period of time rather than happening at an instant. The trigger occurs across the time you spend the first of the three clicks to the time you spend the last of the three clicks.
Jeeves is incredibly inconsistent with every other card like this in the game. Its currently the only card in the game that doesn’t remember the game state before its active.
It does remember. It is just that the trigger in question is spending all three clicks. It’s not just the spending of the third click that is the trigger.
And you can’t trigger an effect if the card isn’t active when the trigger happens.
Jeeves remembers that you spent clicks but not what they were on. Weird that a card is allowed partial memory. Example Genetics Pavilion doesn’t need to be rezzed until after the runner has drawn 2 cards for its effect to take place.
No, it does remember everything. It is just that the card wasn’t active when the trigger happened.
Spending the first and second clicks is a part of the trigger, just the same as spending the third click. The trigger is not the third click, it’s all three. You can’t trigger an effect if the card wasn’t active when (all of) the trigger occurred.
And I understand that but its inconsistent with EVERY other card like this. Either all cards with triggers based on game state should be this way or they shouldn’t. Why doesn’t Genetics Pavilion need to be active during the runners draws for its trigger to take effect?
But there aren’t any other cards like this! It’s the first one (as far as I’m aware) that has a trigger condition that happens over a period of time rather than at a instant.
(Genetics Pavillion isn’t even a triggered effect, so there’s no question of being active when a trigger happens)
Time and gamestate aren’t mutually exclusive. Either nothing is remember before a card is rezzed or all of it is remembered. I present you this puzzle. If I had a Mandatory Upgrades scored and my turn was
When do I get the free click from Jeeves? Do I even get it at all?
The game state knows that the first time I spent 3 clicks on the same action was on click 3. Jeeves doesn’t know it happened until click 4 though. Does Jeeves memory trump the game state?
No. The trigger “the first time in the turn three clicks are spent on the same thing” happens over the period of spending clicks one, two and three (all installs). Jeeves knows this. He is a highly-tuned bioroid with an intuitive knowledge of the game state, past and present. He knows this is the the trigger for his effect.
Was Jeeves active when (all of) the trigger happened? No. So the effect doesn’t trigger.
So again we’re back to partially memory. Hes cognitive enough to know that I spent clicks he just has no idea what I spent them on before he was rezzed.
No! He knows it was an install, he just also knows it doesn’t trigger himself since he wasn’t active.
Just like if you have Wyldside in play and install Adjusted Chronotype click two. AC knows that its trigger happened (first lost click), but it doesn’t resolve since it also knows it wasn’t active when the trigger happened.
Jeeves knows his trigger happens over clicks one to three, but knows he wasn’t active for it.