Would limited Astroscript kill Fast Advance?

Whether you agree with the premise doesn’t really matter. In this instance we are all pretty much concerned with outcomes.

That’s why I still think some of the most relevant points apply. In any card pool, some cards will be good and some will not be as good. The one’s that aren’t as good aren’t going to be regularly taken to tournaments. No matter how thin the ‘curve’ is, players will always take the best stuff. No matter what. I can’t see how this point can be disagreed with. It is demonstrable, practical, and true across multiple games.

I’m glad they have chosen to work creatively with the bad stuff and make it interesting and fun and weird in Netrunner. And do so in a tactical way that aids design and game longevity/fun in a number of ways. You guys aren’t. That’s the heart of this debate.

Half the time in this thread you’re just replying to your own posts, so it makes it look like you’re just having a schizophrenic argument from both sides of the line. While the mental image is amusing, it makes for a confusing read.

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I’m replying to other people’s replies? If you just read the bottom part of the threads it doesn’t show what other’s have said, which I agree, is pretty confusing. Am I hitting reply in the wrong spot?

Nah, I just mean the little icon that pops up on the top-left of your post (which is probably here ^ on this post) when you hit “reply” next to a specific post, rather than the “reply” at the bottom of the page.

Had to remake the post because apparently it doesn’t show up if I reply to the bottom post! Learning shit.

Lol. Sorry dude, I’ll try to getbetteratforum TM

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Anyhow, that was super off topic. Sorry =P

More to the point, I think it’s always the case that the best cards will be played. I’m not sure that’s even the argument. I think the real argument here is that if several cards are printed up that are very good on their own it’s kind of fine, but if those cards are really, really, really good together than it can create a rather large problem in a design space where nothing ever really goes away. And yeah, since they announced a rotation cycle some of the shit will eventually leave, but the core and the boxes are staying. And unfortunately, the four really big cards in an Astrobiotics deck (Sansan, Astro, Biotic, and Fast Track) are staying. Within the design space, this causes issues. Within the play space, this also causes issues.

In a game like Magic, you can tech into some very specific hate cards (example, cards that negate damage from a red source). In Netrunner, there’s no card that says something along the line of “Fuck yellow cards,” that you can throw in a deck. And I actually really like that aspect of Netrunner. Things have to be more broad. Unfortunately for the designers, this also creates situations that are hard to get out of, and things like Clot end up being printed that have the potential of screwing up a lot of decks aside from their intended targets.

Anyhow, I think the argument is about what can be done in this situation.

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I think after threading here last night I agreed with the sentiment they just need to be less cautious going forward with costings and influence. I still see room for bad cards, and I feel as though they are designing good, fun, interesting cards that work for casual games that aren’t probably going to see much tournament play. I’m glad they are being cautious though.

Logos vs Desperado is a good example.

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This. So much this… You completely contradict your “power creep” argument by saying the meta is full of nothing but Core Set and Spin Cycle cards. If all you’re playing is old shit, then that’s not power creep.

I personally feel like they’re playing it a bit too “safe” with the card design. At the same time though, if you’re not careful you end up with un-fun stuff like Psi games (Caprice specifically in that regard.)

As Peekay states, power creep is usually blatant. Like him, I’m also a veteran of the old Decipher CCGs. The game that got me into card games was the Star Trek CCG, but I played Star Wars as well. When the first couple of seasons of Voyager were on air, the Star Trek CCG had already been around for a few years at that point and had several expansions released, meaning that at that point the card pool was at least a couple thousand cards strong. Decipher decided to make the Voyager expansion a “jumping-on” point for new players. They wanted to design a set of cards that new players could purchase and have a rewarding game experience without having to purchase a ton of old cards.

What ended up happening was a blatantly-overpowered mess that put every other set release and deck archetype to shame.

Delta Quadrants decks ran roughshod over the tourney scene. First, because the Voyager crew were way overpowered in comparison to their Original Series/Next Generation/DS9 counterparts. Second, due to such abominations as Spatial Scission, which was a card that you could play on table that allowed you to play two copies of each unique Personnel and Ship. Coupled with an older card called Red Alert, which allowed you to play out as many Ship, Personnel and Equipment cards as you wanted instead of the usual one or two, you ended up with fun stuff like two fully-staffed Voyagers with a full complement of characters hitting the table at once, flying around busting the hell out of Dilemmas and Missions, and winning the game in one turn.

Even though I loved the Trek CCG, I eventually left the game because they couldn’t find a way to get that power creep in check.

I don’t want to see the same thing happen in Netrunner due to poor design.

@PeekaySK : Props for being a Decipher vet too! I regret our previous beef… :smile: What games did you play?

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These are not broad tutors at all. Aggressive Negotiations requires you to score an agenda on that same turn AND have a click left. I’ve been trying to use that card since Core and never succeeded - be honest, when is the last time you played it or had it played against you? Project Atlas is limited to one faction (so that’s 1/4th of games) and requires paying a hefty cost (over-advancing). Over-advancing it is popular with BS now, but before BS Midseason was popular it was rarely done. And AD Wombo requires you to win on the turn you go off or you lose the game. Doesn’t get more limited than that.

The venerable Captain Frisk pointed out that I forgot Planned Assault and Trade In. More tutors, yes, but still limited.

laughing That’s all that I asked for :wink:

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Primarily SWCCG (started just before ANH hit the stores, held on all the way through to Virtual Set 8 or so), but I also have a bunch of Star Trek 1.0, Star Trek 2.0, and I’ve played enough LOTR to know it blows (though I might be biased due to being a Middle-Earth veteran, and still think that’s the best Tolkien game ever to see the light of the sun).

Young Jedi was just horrible though, wouldn’t touch that stuff with a 10-foot pole :smiley:

Star Wars is a very interesting subject to study:

  • The core game was awesome, though a bit variance-prone
  • Everything between core and Special Edition added various levels of jank and layered the rules heavily
  • Special Edition and Reflections had a notable jump in power level, but at the same time fixed some variance issues with more complicated strategies (Attack Run)
  • The Episode 1 stuff never should have happened, that was just a horrible mess

I gotta say one thing though - the way the power creep was used to turn old janky and useless stuff into actually viable deck archetypes was awesome. Most of this was the work of the Players’ Committee, though.

LLDS are doing something Decipher almost never did, though - new releases often bring new usability to previously bad/underwhelming cards. Huge props for that, and it’s one of the many reasons I think Netrunner in its current incarnation is awesome.

Story time!

Regionals 2013, final game. IAA a Breaking News, pass the turn. Next turn, score BN, AggNeg for the second Scorch, smoke a stupid-looking Andromeda sitting on a Decoy :stuck_out_tongue:

edit:

I feel that the one thing that helped my Weyland game most was reading Martin Presley’s “Pretend Atlas is a 4/2” or something to that effect. I definitely wouldn’t say it’s a rare occurence over the last 2 years.

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That’s an interesting point.

I’ve been experimenting with scoring Hostile Takeover in a remote, and then installing Lizzie to clear the Bad Pub in Blue Sun. (Most runners very rarely, if ever, run face down cards in Weyland, preferring to build up and snipe the advanced stuff). But this is maybe a better way of using that spare click.

It will be interesting to see how well Titan FA will measure up to NEH, the Atlastrain is likely to be as annoying to play against as the Astrotrain even if it includes some other cards. It somewhat helps that it doesn’t have SanSan in-faction but Weyland do have solid early-game ICE on the other hand.

Wraparound, Quandary, Eli is good early game ICE. Titan FA will be nowhere near the level of NEH FA. NEH has 9 fast advance options (3 biotic, 3 sansan, 3 astro) whereas Titan will have 3?

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I haven’t tested nearly enough yet to have a opinion on the power-level other than it looks playable.

It might be that the deck is reliant on too many moving parts, but free atlastokens is a very good way to find those moving parts. I do see early SanSan City Grid behind a Hive messing up games though. One of the many decks that will have to prove itself during store champs season.

I love Middle Earth: The Wizards (I’m guessing that’s the game you’re talking about).

Let’s be honest, though, it’s a horrible, horrible game. Even if we ignore the entire CCG aspect (that lead to an endless pile of garbage cards), the design is crap.

The baseline is 1/4th of games (since Weyland was never more popular than that, if I recall correctly). Let’s say Weyland pulls it off in one out of two games (which is also somewhat optimistic, I think). I think that falls under “situational tutor”. Not saying that it’s bad - I once said that Atlas is one of the best 3 cards in the game :grinning: just situational.

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I guess we’re getting off topic, but I think 1x AggNeg is barely, barely playable in Blue Sun.

Between “install Hostile, next turn AA and AggNeg” and “IAA NAPD, next turn AA and AggNeg”, it seems usable in some non-zero percentage of games with pretty high upside.

Blue Sun has a lot more desired splashes than it has influence, and I end up playing some combination of 1x Tollbooth, 1x Ash, 1x Adonis, 1x Snare, 1x SEA/Midseasons which is ripe for tutoring. Or you just get another Oversight and cash out.

I could be wrong but my impression is that since Blue Sun, nobody actually tested AggNeg in a deck.

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I would try it if I knew what would be worth all that effort aside from tutoring a Scorched Earth flatline combo.

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Add Levy University and max out on bootcamps. Then you got 4 additional copies of tollbooth in addition to adonis and snare. Now we just need a piece of ice that tutors for an upgrade to find ash, and an upgrade that tutors for operations to find midseasons.

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Most plans take the following form:

Step 1: [Insert Unlikely Premise]
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

But Weyland’s plans always look like this:

Step 1: [Assemble the Unlikely Combo Pieces]
Step 2: Profit!
Step 3: ???

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What you just described is called “Project Atlas” :wink: Except that you can actually keep the counter until they steal an agenda and then Midseason them.

I’m assuming you’re either joking or that you never actually tried putting Levy U in a deck … cause it’s awful.