I was specifically talking about Quetzal with E3 and D4VID to back it up being tough. OAI is no longer an economy card in this matchup and you under a ton of pressure until you find a Lotus Field which will more than likely lock down a server.
However, clearly you don’t believe E3 belongs in Quetzal which suits me just fine. Also, my personal experience has been that Anarch matches are tough since D4VID means you can never use OAI for massive econ early on.
Yes, the overall gameplan is the same. I don’t agree with the ice selection. There are 5 pieces of ice you would be happy to rez early on. This means you are heavily reliant on OAI connecting on Curtain Wall/Hadrians. Now, this might be fine in a field of Andy players cutting copies of Shutdown and Inside Job to tune against NEH. However, this won’t be good enough once players adapt to this archetype. It is simply a matter of time, as at this point I have no doubt that this is the best build for Blue Sun to date.
I may have to start tinkering with Taurus. RnD Interface is a problem and having a way to answer it sounds good.
Why would CorpWar over NAPD be wrong? In Blue Sun you’re basically guaranteed the 7 credits, so usually it turns out being similar to scoring a PriReq. I personally like having my agenda scores boost my economy.
Oh right, I read your remark on this earlier but promptly forgot about it and didn’t think of it while looking at the list. Looking now, yeesh, no kidding. 1 ice wall, 1 hive, 1 enigma, and 1 guard. I bet they had to mulligan to find these every game.
This list plays 16 ice while mine plays 18, so it’s harder to fit all the ice you want. Nevertheless I would never play fewer than 2 hives and 2 caduceus.
I never tried to score NAPD except as the game-winning agenda. Every other agenda in the deck has a huge impact (with a mushinned prireq, you always get the free rez, since you have a spare click to install ice). As a one-of in a deck with atlas counters, I value protecting itself in the endgame more than a modest economic boost early.
Shapers with lots of money and Battering Ram can lock it down pretty effectively. But that’s basicly just @djhedgehog’s String Theory deck plus a few outsider big rig builds.
I always pick OTG back up the turn after installing, and runners don’t seem to keen to get into HQ to kill crisium when the reward is just one random access. Rightly so, I feel, since late game I typically have another crisium either in hand or on R&D.
By late game, the full set-up typically takes 30+ creds to get through – 2x $11 for a curtain wall, 2x $4 or so for lotus or w/e, and 1x $5 to kill crisium. If they run centrals while I’m not trying to score, they can’t build up that kind of money at the same time. If they try to build money, I just make more with oversight.
Generally I’m not worried about the runner surprising me with the ability to get in because 3 of their clicks have to be spent running so they have little flexibility. But sometimes it’s a close count, and NAPD plays around stimhack/d4v1d. One of two times I tutored for NAPD with atlas this way, it made the difference (the other time they didn’t try). Then at my GNK yesterday, in the finals my opponent was also playing this deck, and I used d4v1d and stimhack together to get the winning prireq, while I wouldn’t have been able to pay for NAPD.
As for what runners, I don’t really remember. Accounting for both paper and octgn games it’s been everything (kit kate andy noise quetzal). Maybe I should stream a few games!
I played this for the first time on Sunday. I enjoy playing Netrunner and had a blast at Worlds, but I have to say I felt outright gleeful while playing this deck. It’s hilarious to play. So much fun. I had a stupid grin on my face when I turn 1 Mushined an Atlas and then installed Hive in front vs Nasir.
I mentioned that I had played against kit stealth, but upon further consideration, kit stealth with corroder is a lot more potent than kit stealth with blackat. I played 2 games today and got crushed both times, unable to rush anything out early or safely OAI during the midgame. Without the early atlas counter everything is a lot harder.
It may be that my draws were particularly unlucky those games, as both games my only early econ was clicking (i.e., no hedge, no restructure, no oai). Need to test this matchup more, and interested to hear anybody else’s experience.
I’ve been testing against a stealth Kit recently, and the troubling thing about them is the raw efficiency that they can get when they get their rig set up coupled with the early pressure of “everything is a code gate” in the early game when you only have ice 1 deep.
@bayushi_david said at one point that he feels that Weyland kind of needs to be able to leverage their economy somehow into a win condition, and I agree with that statement. One of the problems with this matchup is that it’s harder to flex my economic muscles by rezzing large, annoying ice to stop the runner in their tracks when they can flip over a few reoccurring credits and get into a server. If they have a decent economy behind this, it can make a Punitive harder to land as well. Especially because of the problem with OAI being turned off, which is generally a card that the deck really, really wants to have in terms of economy. Without it, everything gets way slower.
Anyhow, those are the problems I’ve seen. I’m still testing against it to see what might make it better, either through card choices or play styles.
I have encountered a similar game where the Kit player just had their rig set up with 7 recurring credits.
I think OAI needs to be saved until you get a Grid, so you can get your money burst safely. It is highly unlikely they can run HQ and still have enough juice to break a Curtain Wall.
In theory, Punitives gain a lot of value in this matchup since they are typically installing a lot of cards. The key is getting OAI live, which is pretty hard.
Finally home. Took a look at my BS deck, I was apparently misremembering thing (the ICE list was from a Punitive-less version). The one with Punitives goes like this:
The ICE is definitely lighter than I would like, which is why I am considering dropping the Punitives. Then again, they go so well with the 3-pointers, which go so well with plan A, than I’m really loathe to.
Also, the two Hostiles have been nothing but stellar, and put an enormous amount of pressure on runners. I think they’re totally worth it even without Atlas or Fast Track.
brilliant, i was looking for a punitive build that is up my alley. punitive is great early game protection. Sure, its high variance, but its variance thatll outright win you the game.
Are you comfortable running 14 ice with a Taurus and Wendigo in there to boot? Seems super ballsy to me.
I guess the places I would look to cut to fit more ice are probably the 3rd Mushin and the 3rd Grid. I am very tempted to slot in 2 Successful Demonstrations as it would bolster my early game a ton, but I would then still come back to the problem of having only 14 ice.
No, I’m not comfortable at all, but those two pieces aren’t ones I’d cut. I ran into the problem of “my ICE is too expensive, no OAI in sight” far more often than into the problem of “boy I sure wish either of these pieces actually DID something”. For instance, Wendigo is great on its own if you’re suspecting your opponent of running Medium (complete aside: I totally facepalmed in the bottom bracket final game where Timmy ditched the Wendigo against Minh round 2 instead of installing it on RnD), and worst case it can turn off a Sucker. Similarly, Taurus - RnD and Archives are the places for him to be.
Cutting the Mushin and the third copies of both grids (I don’t think either Grid needs to stay off as a 3-of if you’re reducing the other parts… do they?) are the move I’m contemplating - it’s either that or the Punitives package. If I do, what ICE pieces do we want? At the moment, I’m contemplating two Rototurrets and a third copy of Enigma (to bolster my early game).
Yes, gains counters. Using the problem doesn’t include any mandatory triggers.
“Using”
Any time an ability is optional, the player resolving the ability
is “using” the ability. This includes all paid abilities and all
optional conditional abilities (triggered abilities that use the
word “may” or “allows”).
Hmm… that’s actually a good question. My kneejerk reaction was “why would it even gain counters?”, but after some searching, I found this, which indicates that for the triggering of a card effect to count as “use”, it has to involve choice from a player - mandatory effects apparently don’t count as use. So yeah, gains counters but can’t see additional cards.
Incidentally, this also means I’m an idiot and Wendigo doesn’t turn off Datasuckers, Lampreys and other such things.
