Totally agree. This icebreaker list makes sense if you’re running 3x of a tutor. But you’re not.
I’m starting to sound like a broken record - it’s like Gabe. If you’re not getting in, you’re probably losing.
I’m not a fan of the Inject clone chip shenanigans in Kim. They’re all sorts of fun and games, but Kim isn’t about fun and games. And without clone chip, this list doesn’t need stimhack as much.
On a similar note- just because you’re Kim doesn’t make you magically immune to Scorch combos. If you take brain damage from Stimhack, then you need 2xIHW to not die to double Scorch. Or a plascrete.
Another note is Memory. The core set Anarch rig needs datasucker(s) to function at some point, so rig+sucker and now you have one floating slot for literally everything else. Djinn is finicky but high upside, but I would recomend Memstrips. 1 Memstrips on the table and this deck doesn’t have memory problems, most likely.
Also not a fan of Nerve Agent, as synergistic as it is. Wanton is simply to good to ignore.
(Unless you’re overrun with CI. then Nerve Agent away).
You’re at a bit of a crossroads, influence wise. You can cut the Desperado for Vigil and SMC, and then your own the Stimhack Shaper Shenanigans train. Or cut the Clone Chip, Inject and Stimhack, bringing in SMC or special order, and use the extra deck slots for econ, breaker redundancy, some draw.
Nerve was definitely something I would get but never install most of the time. It’s there because it’s a great synergy with Sneakdoor, but I usually feel like running after it goes down, so I don’t have the money to add a Nerve into the mix. And this many viruses kinda wants another Jinn or Memstrips, but with strips you don’t want singletons on Medium unless you burn SMC on it.
Generally speaking, there’s enough card draw that finding the Corroder or a D4v1d is rarely an issue. If I’m holding on to IHW because of Scorch-related fears, the draw slows down a bit, but luckily most Weyland builds aren’t running Wraparound. Scorchy NBN would utterly destroy this deck, but I haven’t run into it much in the post-O&C meta.
Architect is a much bigger problem, since the name of the game here (with 3x Sucker, 3x Parasite) is ice destruction. It might be worth running a second Mimic.
I was running SMCs before I made the jump to Desperado, but I found the flexibility of Desperado outweighed the consistency of SMC. That is, the plan here is that Sucker/Para/Ed’s ability provide pressure across the board while you dig for whatever you need. Generally speaking you’re aiming for some big Medium digs in the midgame, but play the board state and adjust as necessary.
If you smell a Scorch, don’t play Stimhack. This deck isn’t using Stimhack to setup, for the most part – maybe 1/5 games you’ll Stimhack-Clone a 4str Atman, but that’s the exception.
You could swap Stimhack out for more econ, another Mimic, or some cutlery if that’s your jive. I’m on the fence about them, myself – they made their way into the deck during the SMC variant, but I found them useful enough for closing out games and/or restarting the Sucker engine that they stuck around. I’ve gone back and forth with Queen’s Gambit, another Earthrise, etc. These two slots are the ones I’m least happy with.
I think you’re making two bad assumptions here:
That you need to assemble a full rig. Yog, for example, isn’t hitting the table often, but it’s handy against certain builds (mostly out of HB). Mimic pretty much only comes out after Architect (which, granted, means it’s out in like 90% of games against T1 builds); unless I’ve seen a very specific threat (or have reason to believe one is there), I will only preemptively install it against Jinteki. Most of the time, you’re trying to melt ice away, rather than break it.
That you need more than 1 MU for “everything else.” Install what you need when it’s useful, then trash it and move on when it’s not. If your Medium has been sitting with no counters on it for 3 turns, it’s time to give up on a deep Medium dig and move on to another plan. Likewise, a Parasite manually ticking down on a Tollbooth/Archer just isn’t an option – if you can’t sucker it down that turn, you probably misplayed installing the Para in the first place.
With that said, I’m not entirely opposed to the changes. I get where you’re coming from – a couple of iterations ago, this was using Grimoire/SMC instead of Desperado/Inject. SMC/Stimhack can setup insanely fast. But I find the sustained econ of Desperado puts out a lot more pressure in the long run, and I don’t have to gamble by turn 3 or 4 on whether or not my opponent is running Scorch.
I have been following the thread a bit as I love anarch and am always curious to see what people are trying. I wanted to finally chip in a couple of notes and opinions as I have experience with SMC in anarch and Kim in general:
If you are committed to SMC I strongly suggest finding a way to get some stimhacks in there. Then get morning star(s) in your deck. With morning star, atman, sneakdoor, and yog you have excellent odds of always having a good target for stimhack+SMC.
Dropping a first turn imp and running is Kim’s best play. Your econ package doesn’t support this very well, but even if it has to be spread out two turns these are the first actions you hope to be taking.
I don’t see the extra virus counter from grimoire being as crucial to your build as others so may I suggest cutting one for a memstrips to see if that works? You’ll still have 3 MU cards and no dead cards in that category.
I think swapping one of the armitage’s for a queen’s gambit (just one) may benefit you. queens gambit is nice money but also in your deck it serves as a way to power out a liberated account from very low credits to get your finances stabilized when you may have (perhaps for good reason) over extended yourself.
I think you can reduce your number of deja vu cards to 2 or even 1. The big plan is to get a yog and atman on the table so there are a considerable less amount of parasite targets than other builds (amplified by your SMC’s and lack of clone chips for utilizing parasite drops with charged datasuckers). You also are not drawing with inject or duggars.
Then why stimhack at all? Wouldn’t a random econ card (even day job) be better on average?
I’m wary of ice destruction as a core plan - getting enough sucker tokens has been quite the problem locally, but then again I’m in a very heavy Blue Sun/Glacier meta.
Like I said, Stimhack is the slot I’m the least happy with here. Day Job is, I think, not a great fit, though (in fact, I’d be hard pressed to see it as a good fit in any deck running Desperado). If I had the influence for Lucky Find, that would be the obvious choice. I think I’m going to try swapping it out for a couple of copies of Knifed – it handles Eli well, which can be a problem before the 4tman is online, makes the D4v1d answer to Wraparound a lot stronger, and could help a bit with the Blue Sun matchup in general.
I can attest that it helps a ton versus Blue Sun - even when just used with Corroder. Being able to burn some of that mobile credit pool is very useful.
I tried it. There were just too many times where I got the SMC and didn’t draw the Stimhack or I’d have the Stimhack in hand and wish it were just an economy card so I could install things that it annoyed me a lot. I also think that if you add Stimhack, you have to include Plascrete Carapace or else you’ll have a hard time Stimhacking against Weyland - arguably the matchup you most want the Stimhack for.
I do like Stimhack just as a stand-alone card, so maybe 1 copy still does make sense for that surprise “yes I can get into that Ash-protected server” but I’d only add 1 to the deck and I wouldn’t remove a real econ card for it and I certainly wouldn’t rely on it to power through an SMC.
This is primarily the reason I have 3x Imp (aside of Imp being strong vs NEH). I don’t understand what you mean by the econ package not supporting this very well, though. Armitage, Sure Gamble and Daily Casts are solid turn-1 plays alongside an Imp+run. What economy cards better support turn-1 Imp?
The Grimoires are in because they are +2MU without restrictions. That means SMC, Djinn and Sneakdoor Beta can be installed if needed. Memstrips is a great card but it doesn’t necessarily help installing the above cards. I know that the second Grimoire is dead, but I’d rather increase my chances of drawing it. If I were to put a third “Grimoire” in, I’d definitely consider Memstrips instead. The extra ability on Grimoire is certainly not needed in the deck, but I’d rather have it than the extra MU on Memstrips.
I like Queen’s Gambit but if I were to include it, it would be instead of the third Deja Vu rather than the third Armitage or maybe over the 3rd Sure Gamble. I like having a good number of econ cards that are playable on turn 1 and I’d hate getting the “oh I mulled into Queen’s Gambit against Tennin Institute” draw when it could have been the 3rd Armitage.
This suggestion, along with the idea of using Morningstar are my favorite ideas that you proposed. I acknowledge that the third Deja Vu (and maybe even the 2nd) is sometimes a hand clogger. Once Clot comes out, assuming this deck uses it, the Deja us make more sense. I can see pulling 1 or even 2 of these, but the question then becomes - what to put into the deck to replace them? I can see putting in a Queen’s Gambit for one. One of the problems of removing Deja Vu is that I’d likely put in a card that i wouldn’t mind USING Deja Vu on (some powerful 1-of event, for instance). If I add Morningstar, I’m really tempted to have that 3rd Datasucker back.
One card I might want to add is a Gravedigger (makes the Parasites and imps gain value, but works better by keeping more Deja Vus) or Hemorrhage as another disruptive virus that Djinn can fetch.
So a change I would take from your input is to remove 1-2 Deja Vu and add some package of the following cards (probably in order of preference):
1 Stimhack
1 Queen’s Gambit
2 Cyberfeeder (yet another “econ” card)
1 Hemorrhage
1 Gravedigger (would only do this if I removed 1 Deja Vu)
If I made room for Morningstar, it would probably be to remove 1 Corroder for it and then take a Deja Vu or a Parasite out for the 3rd Datasucker.
I’m probably going to try -1 Deja Vu, +1 Stimhack again.
I can understand your reservations about stimhack but the ability to bust out a 1-2 turn morningstar or yog is so strong. You can turn off so much ICE so fast and that can leave them reeling while they dig for something that can help them. When I was doing it there wasn’t even d4v1d around.
I may have had tunnel vision on the econ comment as you do have the armitages. I ran with 3 lucky finds, daily’s, and gambles so my recovery (LF/DC) or start (SG) were typically strong. sometimes I exhibit prejudice against armitage without thinking about it.
It’s just one queens gambit and you have lots of econ cards. I’d give it a shot. Many times netrunner players can only see the negative and never end up giving a card a chance.
I’m not questioning the power level of the Stimhack plays. I’m questioning the consistency. Put it this way - I would not trade any of the legit econ cards currently in the deck to support Stimhack. I recognize the value of making a surprise run with one, however.
I’d like to run 2 with my same econ package but legitimately I can only see cutting 1 Deja Vu and maybe one Parasite or another Deja Vu.
I’m not saying I dislike Queen’s Gambit and again, I recognize the value of a free Lucky Find. I just hesitate to play cards in this particular deck that are “sometimes awesome.” The problem is finding the room for it. I’d rather make the sacrifice for the raw power of Stimhack/SMC than the occasional “Hey … I had to become poor to steal that NAPD and I really need to get 6 creds to play this other Liberated Accounts … good thing I drew my one-of Queen’s Gambit.”
I’m trying to find the room for:
2 Stimhack (likely -1 Deja Vu, -1 Parasite)
1 Morning Star (-1 Corroder most likely)
1 Hemorrhage (-1 Nerve Agent maybe, I think Hemorrhage might be very disruptive with Edward and Sneakdoor)
he more I htink on it, though, what is morningstar really helping you with? the 2MU might be too obtrusive. I know it’s no fun breaking Curtain Wall with Corroder
Don’t you have trouble against Weyland or HB running Archer? Seems fun though. Lots of people are taking a PTd Yog into their lists, I’m not convinced that it’s fast enough.
Yes, you will have trouble breaking a 10 strength Curtain Wall. Archer is not as difficult because Atman at 6 solves it nicely or Parasites + sucker tokens because they won’t be bouncing and re-rezzing it.
If you have a better answer in Anarch to Curtain Wall than money + sucker tokens + Corroder + David, I’m all ears.
I don’t know why you have to hate queens and stims all the time!
… but no a stim is not a ‘econ’ card per se’ it’s a ‘support’ card (if you will).
The 2 MU is morningstars drawback but othewise it puts tremendous pressure on a corp. You just stimmed out a morningstar turn 1 or 2 for the real cost of 1 credit. Now you spend 1 credit to break WoS, Bastion, Eli, Hive, NEXT silver, galahad, and occasionally rarer walls like markus. Think of the money you just saved and the tempo you just kept.
When you do get the early morningstar or yog following it up with a datasucker becomes high on the ‘to-do’ list.
The BS matchup with morningstar is not good, the only major impact being against hive (at least around here. I don’t see eli’s in BS around here) If you are forced to rationalize that you can’t replace a corroder with a morningstar (with your list) because of BS’s big-ass walls then you just max out your d4vi1d’s because corroder is pretty turned off as well.
I don’t hate the cards. In fact, I just made two posts where I’m trying to make an argument for putting Stimhacks back in the deck. If anything, it gives Corroder a chance to get into a Weyland scoring server on a turn where they drop and advance an agenda
I’m not putting Queen’s Gambit in this deck. It doesn’t fit. I don’t hate the card at all. I just want consistent accesses with Edward Kim.
Corroder is fine against most of that ICE also. The 2MU in this deck is a pretty big deterrent. Don’t forget that against a lot of that ICE, the deck will try to install a Parasite, too. I would also hate drawing Morningstar because that means it’s never getting Stimhacked into play. Also, I’m running SMC. Having a Morningstar and another breaker in play means I’m not playing an SMC until I find memory. That feels awkward.
BS isn’t played often enough around my meta, so I’ll just have to live with Atman, Corroder, D4vid and running other servers. Luckily Edward has built-in disruption for any Blue Sun designed to kill with meat damage.
I do like the Stimhack idea. I’m going to try to run at least 1 and maybe 2 in place of Deja Vu but the more I think on it and do practice draws, the less I like Morningstar and Queen’s Gambit in the sMC Hammer build.
PT Yog is slower but with 9 card draw effects I’ve found that it works great! I’m able to dig for it if necessary but also it just naturally filters into my hand when rig building.
Archers are trouble for a lot of killers yet datasuckers are already required so I’m usually aware of the threat but not afraid of it. Virus breeding ground has been great to rebuild datasuckers without sinking tons of money
I’ve just found this thread! Glad to see I’ve not been wildly out with my Kim decks. The deck below is roughly what I’ve been running for the last month or so:
Probing Kim (45 cards)
Edward Kim: Humanity’s Hammer
Event (13)
3 Deja Vu
2 Inject
3 I’ve Had Worse
1 Special Order
1 Stimhack
3 Sure Gamble
Program (12)
2 D4v1d
2 Datasucker
2 Djinn
1 Imp
1 Medium
1 Nerve Agent
3 Parasite
It’s not wildly different from many in here. As with most Anarch decks, I find Kim wonderfully exciting, sometimes absolutely brutal and occasionally almost useless. Some comments on my choices:
I went for a Criminal type economy. As Kim, you want to be running centrals as much as possible, hence Desperado/Datasucker can be your sole source of income in some games. Clever Corp players will purge virus counters early, and soon after secure Centrals.
Cyberfeeder is okay… I like to run very aggressively, so laying a Cyberfeeder makes that slower. But, it’s useful midgame if you’re having a lull getting in.
Crypsis and Knight are the breakers I’m least sure about. They are so slow and Crypsis is so expensive. But, on more than one occasion, both cards have won me games. I’m loathe to take them out as Special Order into either of them can be game-winning if you’re on the ropes.
Djinn - I really love this card tbh. It’s a little slow, but digging for Parasites and Datasuckers is not to be sniffed at. Especially with a Deja Vu in hand to recur them. Djinn can really help getting ICE trashed. Likewise, it’s amazing for digging out Medium/Nerve Agent.
Nerve Agent - I’ve been finding this more effective than Medium. It’s amazing against NBN too. NBN ICE is so porous and you just end up accessing their entire hand. With Kim’s ability the Biotics and Fast Tracks are soon lost. Along with the agendas of course
Sneakdoor vs. Atman - this is tough for me. I’ve switched between the two and they’ve both been great. Atman for it’s sheer power. Sneakdoor because Kim loves HQ accesses and it forces the Corp to defend another server, thus weakening them elsewhere. Tricky.
For my next build, I’m definitely trying the SMC approach. Icebreaker tutoring is the most common problem I find. But, I fear I will suffer by probably having to ditch Desperado, which is usually my MVP.
Rough match-ups so far that I’ve had:
HB glacier - Early game is okay, then you get taxed out and have to pick your runs wisely. I’ve won a couple though.
Grail RP - You rarely run with a full breaker suite and Grail ICE is brutal if you’re not. Sure you can clone chip back a trashed Corroder or Mimic, but that’s less Parasite fun
