E. Kim Appreciation Thread

Netrunner General
443

This exactly- you want affordable runs because more runs = more accesses = more opportunities for Kim to dob what you’re playing him for. Imp trashes a Sansan, which is great, but also thins ice. Thinning ice means more Corp drawing to supplement, and this means with remaining clicks they can install ice on HQ to protect operations they just drew, or play out the ops as they topdeck them, leaving more ice in hand behind ice you can affordably break and Imp again. THIS is why Wanton is powerful over Legwork- disruption. Play a Legwork, see three cards. Ice, ice, Eve. Big whoop. Wanton for three and trash ice, ice, Eve? Much better.

HQ should not be the focus of a Kim deck, it should be something you bounce to occasionally after the Corp overdraws to clear out FA tools and recovery/econ operations- otherwise someone like ETF is content to slowly build their board state and out-taxyou, playing econ ops as they topdeck them and keeping an NAPD around for you to lose tempo stealing. Wanton resets their hand when they get comfy and let you in because there are no good targets, which you can ascertain without having to throw a Legwork- but R&D controls the flow of cards the Corp will see, and that is how you choke their econ. Take ops from R&D, wanton after draw turns, and Imp remote assets.

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444

I’m not saying it’s not powerful. I’m saying it’s not Eddie. It’s redundant. Playing a Wanton is the opposite of making more runs.

445

Except Legwork+Imp is more credits and MU for a similar effect (although you’re absolutely right about Jackson and Bioroids).

I disagree about Legwork/HQI being critical to him. It’s certainly nice, but I’ve avoid the HQ focus for exactly the reasons you’ve mentioned - how often are you going to sandbag an operation, especial against Kim? Unless it’s not playable (scorch, I’m looking at you) it usually hits the table almost immediately.

One can be enough.

Legwork gives you a high chance of access. Wanton gives you guaranteed disruption.

446

We’re talking about two different play styles, so I’ll defer to your experience on the Wanton + RnD dig plays. Try my list, see how it plays, I’ll do the same with yours. Have you revised your list from the one posted far above?

No argument about the ops being played immediately: that does tend to happen. There are a number that don’t and are nice to hit in HQ: Scorch, Midseasons/SEA Source, Shutdown, Biotic, Interns, even Restructure. Legwork’s been pretty clutch for me.

447

I think it was earlier in this thread I posted a supplier kim that I had been working on. Earthrise, memstrips+overmind, supplier, vigil, etc, it ended up that the drops were strictly worse than casts + liberated off supplier (which is tits btw), supplemented by bursts and stimhack. There definitely is a use for supplier though, it makes Earthrise, casts, liberated and memstrips all quite a bit better. It IS overall less aggressive though.

448

I’ve thought that too. My “tutoring” Kim decks seem interchangeable with Whizzard, whose ability is worth 9+ credits a game.

Also, I can’t see playing Plascrete in Kim. One of the slight advantages you get from his ID is that you can counter kill decks without installing anything.

449

http://netrunnerdb.com/en/decklist/18081/eddie-smash-v1-3

is slightly more current, although less tested. Memory is certainly going to be tighter, but SMC does SMC things.

I’ll try your deck out at some point - going to stick to my more familiar list this weekend for a store championship, though.

Agreed on serious hits on non-econ ops. The inversion from “That’s going to be a pain in the ass to deal with” to “That would’ve been annoying” is so awesome.

Without even trying, sometimes.

450

Good luck at the SC! Do Eddie proud! :slight_smile:

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451

I think eddie is not quite there yet.

I think FFG is waiting on the impact of data folding. I expect to see more virtual cards. And both he and express seem to be likely candidates to benefit.

I also think the current state of the meta is too fast for eddie. And Link is not at the moment really relevent. Data folding / underworld contacts are likely targets while too slow

452

A runner who trashes FA tools as his ability and has Imp in faction is absolutely not too slow. Kims strongest two matches are NEH fastrobiotics and ETF/Sansan FA, at least when a deck is built and piloted properly. I just left a 20 person store champ making second place, playing against HB and NEH all day in five rounds of Swiss and top 8 cut (and one Grail RP), undefeated in elims before succumbing to a NEARPAD deck and taking second. Draw, money, and SMC are all you need. You have Imp, you have Medium, fixed breakers, everything you need for affordable runs is in faction except tutors. Atman at 4 (one Atman, two SMC, 3 Lucky Find is my influence currently) and Morningstar flatout shut down every taxing piece of ice beyond sentries, which get parasited, and Tollbooth, which is what D4v1d can used for, or more practically Atman/sucker. The biggest trouble with Kim is memory, which can be solved with more draw, but proper piloting and planning lets you set up for mid and late game, and forcing ETR through your ability alone is enough to threaten throttle-corps into slowing down. If it doesn’t, they’re just playing a numbers game on your accesses and that’s no different than RDI Andy running through your Architect once per turn.

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453

As a NEARPAD pilot, Kim is something I fear on paper, but haven’t played against enough in reality. Strong imp availability/recursion and the ability to pick apart key ops like midseasons, psycho, and diversified before I’m ready strikes me as pretty scary.

Could you elaborate a bit what happened in this matchup? I’d love to learn more about the pairing.

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454

While you’re right, my issue was an economic one- once I had my Plascrete down (a 1-of for decks like this) I started trying to lock R&D down to keep him from Diversified and/or Sweeps, but I had little choice but to float tags. I had trashed two DRT very early in the game and once I had Plascrete down he had not bothered to Jackson them back in, so I knew he had switched to FA mode- I had been through 2 Imps and trashed econ assets but I simply couldn’t keep them trashed at the rate that he was putting them down without sustainable econ. I had a Kati and Casts in my hand and ran as far as I could on Lucky Finds and Sure Gambles, but eventually his drip econ from Marked Accounts and PAD Campaigns was getting out of hand to where I was going to lose too much tempo dealing with them. His deck was wearing thin, he had a decent pile in Archives and 12 remotes installed, so I was aiming to hammer R&D with a Morningstar + Medium (his R&D was Wraparound, Popup, Popup, Eli).

Unfortunately I was finally set up with some money and ran R&D to score an Astro (the first Astro), and ended my turn with 1 credit, so he Midseasoned me for 13. Once I was full of tags I had no choice but to draw for burst econ or click for credits and run R&D once per turn with the Medium to keep him from his Psychographics, but at that point in the game there was only 2 Beales and 3 NAPDs left and I kept hitting the NAPDs. Basically he had not Midseasoned anyone all day and no one knew he was running one (his deck was undefeated all day and won every game but one through scoring out); I tried clicking for credits to 5 to draw a Sure Gamble but he hit me with a Closed Accounts and in the end I was just starved out.

I could have piloted better in this matchup (NO ONE anywhere in our Cincinnati/Dayton meta plays this style of deck, I was not well-practiced against it) by setting up long term econ asap and singularly focusing on R&D once I had my plascrete down. Watching previous matches while waiting to play him from winner’s bracket I saw him install a naked Astro against an opponent who was not checking remotes, so I knew I had to keep him honest through checking, which was a huge click-sink because you aren’t trashing the PADs and Marked Accounts and still getting any economic gain if you are checking every remote. I think the key to the matchup is to go hard for R&D asap and force them to spend time defending it, but it’s a difficult choice. You need multiaccess asap so he can’t overdraw by installing and break your R&D lock so easily, and that means trashing DBS as soon as it appears. I’m considering dropping my 2x John Masanori for 2x Chopbot for draw on expended Imps/other programs because I install over pretty often as I’m rig building, which you have to do with Kim until you find memory. Being able to remove the tag seems like a noobish thing but in a fast-paced matchup like that one I walked away feeling like a Chopbot would have given me the edge I needed.

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455

Seems like NEH doing NEH things: a bit unlucky in the finals, then, and a great finish, I’d say. :slight_smile: Have you posted your list?

456

As a side note do you have your kim list up anywhere?

457

Part of me wants to fit in Scrubber now.

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458

Here is the list I’ve been working on, which I took to the store champ I mentioned:

Slap Chop! v2.0

Edward Kim: Humanity’s Hammer

Event (14)
1x Déjà Vu
3x I’ve Had Worse
3x Lucky Find ••••• •
1x Queen’s Gambit
1x Stimhack
3x Sure Gamble
2x Wanton Destruction

Hardware (5)
2x Grimoire
1x Plascrete Carapace

Resource (9)
3x Daily Casts
2x Kati Jones
2x John Masanori
2x Liberated Account

Icebreaker (7)
1x Atman •••
2x Corroder
2x Mimic
1x Morning Star
1x Yog.0

Program (10)
1x D4v1d
2x Datasucker
2x Djinn
2x Parasite
2x Imp
1x Medium
2x Self-modifying Code ••••• •

15 influence spent (max 15)
45 cards (min 45)

Thoughts:

The deck is 90% there. It plays fantastically but there are some parts of it that remain frustrating to control or come with their own drawbacks. John seemed good on paper since I would almost never ETR with SMC out, but I literally lost a game in Swiss to FastroNEH by running a popup on R&D 4th click and finding out it was a Quandary (misread the install), getting tagged by John, and losing Kati next turn. The deck needs draw support beyond IHW, but not bad enough to spend influence on it. With a control approach to rig building Inject is no good either, but I’m eyeing Symmetrical Visage as a 2x to replace John, which I almost always threw away due to the risk. I think the extra compression from Visage on drawing will make it much more palatable given the even spread and diversity of my econ.

The real problem with the deck is memory, and always has been. Morningstar Mimic Yog Atman4 Datasucker Medium is your ideal set up for end game, with the occasional Imp or Parasite, so even Grimoire is not enough memory on its own if the game should go long enough for you to get to that point. It was Djinn or Memstrips, and I opted for Djinn after trying Memstrips, which was very impractical since I rarely have 3 viruses out simultaneously. Djinn is a band-aid; it works, always at least “ok”, sometimes better than ok, like when I see it early without having to SMC for it and also having a good late-game economy started up early on so that I can afford the click tax of using Djinn. This deck does not want a program taking up memory so that it can provide more memory, it’s awkward and clunky sometimes though it comes with benefits like hosting SMC or D4v1d.

Parasite is slow and lacks value in my experiences with it so far (5 store champs in 7 weeks and dozens of hours on octgn). I find I only use it for sentries; Pup, Komainu, Tsurugi, Archer, all being popular targets, but if I drop them for Forked x2 I can accelerate the deck, and the added surprise factor would be a nice bonus. However the primary reason would be to add 2x Q-Coherence Chip; the card does one thing, a thing I really need- a temporary affordable memory solution. Now that it’s function has been ruled to be non-idiotic, I really think it will shore things up nicely. A common problem is to be at 3 memory (no console) with an SMC in hand, drawing a frustrating amount for a Djinn or Grimoire that I can use to slap down SMC to go find that last piece of the core rig- and half the time, drawing the breaker before the memory to install the SMC to go FIND the breaker, which is ridiculous. Q-Chip will trash when I use SMC’s ability, which is fine, because I’m often looking for Yog or Atman with them being 1-ofs.

Wanton is a recent addition and I love it. I played it every game at store champ, but only once for the purpose of actually trashing any cards (played it and spent two clicks against an HB with an IQ guarding R&D to make a last click Medium dig using Yog). I don’t run HQ often once a Corp puts a second ice on it (or third), I start setting up for R&D at that point. Wanton is a tempo card for this deck- it’s a card that says “spend a click and a credit to make the Corp rez ice on HQ”. That’s right, it’s a better, more versatile Cyber Threat. A Corp with no operations in hand or NAPDs or high-trash assets might just let you in, but Wanton lets them know that you’re just crazy enough to spend your whole turn wrecking their HQ, and they’ll almost always rez the ice to stop you under threat. Then draw, install a program, click Kati.

I could go on and on about Kim but I’ll stop myself here. I’m the newest contributor for the Black Hats group and I’m currently mid-production of a series of videos about Kim and my deck choices, so I’ll save some things back for that :slight_smile:

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459

[quote=“ItJustGotRielle, post:458, topic:2413”]
The deck needs draw support beyond IHW, but not bad enough to spend influence on it. [/quote]

Earthrise? Swapping two in for the Johns is a straightforward change (and I’d argue, improvement), and I’d possibly ditch the Carapace if I really wanted to fit in a third.

If you need draw, don’t go Visage. That’s an econ card - it gives you money for drawing, but it doesn’t let you draw better.

460

If you’re having MU troubles, MemStrips over Djinn is one place to look. Doing so probably necessitates a second Medium.

To be honest, with that much resource econ, I’d go for Earthrise over Masanori as well. If you ever remove a tag Masanori gives you, he’s just as expensive as Earthrise - and he draws cards so much slower. Your only synergy piece for him is Datasucker, so there’s not a complelling reason to keep him.

The one-of stimhack seems odd to me (as does the Queens gambit). SMC stims is alright, but with 1xPlas it’s leaving you a bit open to flatlines.

461

Thanks a lot for posting the list, and cool to hear about you joining up with ANR Blackhats, thats an awesome channel and iv been following your decks since the Keystone write up, so im really looking forward to what you put up.

I can’t get my head around morning star. Atman @4, corroder, mimic, yog.0 and datasucker, all out at once seems to be one of the most efficient rigs in the game, where does morningstar fit in?

462

You make great points about Earthrise- definitely giving that a shot tonight over John, the clickless draw is sorely needed.

Queen’s Gambit is awesome for two reasons; first, it’s an influence-free 4th Lucky Find (less consistent), and second, it’s a recovery tool. I hold it most games once I have it, and use it click 1 after going broke the turn before, and primarily reserved it for fast matchups like NEH to get Medium out and keep hammering on R&D.

Stimhack is another multi-purpose tool that I wish I could take 2 of but I lose most games where I take heavy damage due to having weak recursion (losing a breaker sucks because now one of your SMC is dedicated to getting the other one from your stack!) so I really hold Stimhack for when it’s time to make a big play (when you HAVE to trash a Sansan like a dig on R&D to see two NAPDs with no credits to take them (happened two different times Saturday!) and close a game out.

Thanks for the perspective!