I always feel garrote’s 2 mem was a real hit in it’s effectiveness.
3 Likes
So I made a few changes to the @aandries / @spags list, and I’m just wondering everyone’s thoughts.
-2 Mr. Li
-1 Lucky Find
+1 Hostage
+1 John Masanori
+1 Professional Contacts
Justification:
I don’t really get Mr. Li. Paying 3 to have filtered draw doesn’t seem great to me, and I’d rather get paid to draw for 2 more credits. I cut Lucky Find for the influence, as it seemed to be the best place to cut (cutting econ to add econ). John Masanori also seems like a straight upgrade from Mr. Li in the NEH matchup since it doesn’t cost you clicks and forces them to defend assets or give you the ability get 3 credits and a card in a click. Hostage is there to act as the 2nd copy of either Proco or JM, and let you tutor for whichever one you need for your current matchup.
Do you see a lot of glacier in your area? If not, your changes are probably fine. John is less draw power than you’d want if you can’t run regularly, and Mr Li is great for getting your high impact tools ready for your less frequent runs. That said, i do run 1x John because he is great when he has a chance. Nothing says you can’t install both.
I don’t like John M in Leela compared to Andromeda because Leela’s economy is more focused on Kati Jones. Also, the five card draw vs nine card draw means you’re a lot less likely to see Desperado with John early, which kind of nullifies the point of him. If your meta is only NEH then maybe… I still like Earthrise more than any other draw option in Criminal.
4 Likes
John is never played in any matchup aside from NEH, as the risk of losing tempo / kati is wayyy too high against any other deck. With no way to trash him yourself, you’ve really got to be in the right match up to play him. Against Glacier, John M just becomes a dead draw (kind of like the 2nd li) and you’re main objective is to get to kati and proco, like you normally would.
I think Pro Co is definitely worthy of at least one splash with Hostage in faction. Certainly helps the card draw and helps those periods when you want to wait with Leela.
I prefer Mr Li to ProCo, since when you’re in a down period with Leela you should be looking for some kind of specific tool to exploit an upcoming window. ProCo gets you money while you draw which is nice, but Mr Li can get you to the tool you need faster.
I like ProCo more in decks that want to draw and play the whole deck as they go, rather than different pieces at different times.
I would never hostage for Procon. I MIGHT grab him with Logos if they do a turn 2 hostile takeover or clone retirement (if I were playing Logos); but hostage and procon, that’s just not a good use of your deckslots, influence, credits, or actions.
John M I found totally takes the wind out of your sails when it comes to being aggressive, I threw in a 1-of for mid-late game, but he’s just not really consistent enough, and the threat of his tag is quite punishing. I might sleeve him back in at some point, but right now, I prefer just quality/consistency.
I’m trying out cutting Mr. Li, as I’ve seen some of the other more recent lists on here dropping him as well (or maybe were never running it to begin with?) so right now, the deck focuses on simply not having cards I WOULDN’T want rather than needing to sift through them, though as long as I have plascrete, I might come around to Mr. Li–he’s just so goddamn good. I also found that I didn’t mind playing a more diverse breaker suite with Mr. Li, though at the moment I don’t feel pressured to find space for my Yog.0
So yeah, right now there is no draw in my deck, I just focus on nuts and bolts, and no-nonsense criminal tools. Only cards that tend to collect in-hand are emergency shutdown and inside job, or legwork if I’m letting them stew.
1 Like
Have to admit I’m not running any card draw, have tested quite a bit and think I prefer the deck without it.
1 Like
What did you replace it with? More duplicates? SOTs? 5th Account Siphon?
1 Like
I’ve been trying to convince everyone I know that running 5 account siphons is really the only way to play Criminal. You might think your ‘fun’ tools like Inside Job and Sneakdoor Beta get the job done, but no card is as powerful as Siphon. In fact, I’m thinking of going up to 10 of them; just got to buy more core sets.
3 Likes
I don’t understand the “I won’t hostage for Proco” sentiment.
Hostaging Proco is 2 clicks (missed credits), 6 credits, and a card (the Hostage). So -9
You get +1 everytime you draw a card, so you’d have to use it 10 times for it to actually be worth it.
In a fast matchup, this of course makes no sense, since the game might be over by the time you get a quarter of the way through your deck, and more importantly, it isn’t worth giving up so much tempo in such a short game.
However, if a slower matchup, drawing 10 cards is totally reasonable, and so you’d want it if you could get it early enough. I’d probably install it 100% of the time versus PE RP Tennin, and have to make a judgement call versus Weyland / HB.
You can also, in asset spam matchups (NEH), get Masanori. He comes in at -5 (2 to install, 2 clicks, and a card) but then gives you +1 on a run you’d probably be making anyways (gotta make sure it isn’t astro, or sec testing archives).
Compare this to Li who (non hostage’d) is immediately -5 (3 to install, click and a card) and only gets value if you skip a card that you actually didn’t want (like a second copy of desperado).
That being said, after much theory crafting, I’m not sure Proco is worth the -9.
I can see value going through your deck twice as fast (with Li).
I’ll probably just play Lucky Find with the inf.
Cut a Li for Crash Space, and find something else to put in the last Li spot.
Well that’s why hostage doesn’t really see much competitive play, the card has to be a lynchpin in your strategy to justify hostaging it.
Because while your math is sound, it overlooks the fact that hostage didn’t (presumably) just fall into your deck by accident. What if instead of hostage, you had bank job–not even addressing whether you cut proco or not, the fact is that raw economy makes hostage+econ resource look awful. Yes, it might not be the workhorse of a Kati Jones (unless of course you cut hostage for Kati Jones) but its just cleaner, quicker, and more fluid than hostage.
It gets discussed here a lot and the stimhack mantra is that you don’t hostage for money–you just play money. It might feel counterintuitive to you, or that hostage isn’t THAT inefficient, but your deck will 99% of the time be made better by just playing regular money.
I play 3x Mr. Li because once you get the 1st copy, the other 2 are a soft -2 deck size, as you very rarely will actually choose to draw a Mr. Li from a Mr. Li draw. I’m seeing how the deck holds up without him at the moment, but he clears through so much programmed redundancy (Kati Jones, Desperado, Sec. Test in some cases, Day Job, 2nd/3rd breakers) that I consider him immensely powerful in the deck.
3 Likes
I’m currently running 2 SOT, so yeah Account Siphon no.5 
I’m finding having the back up event extremely powerful, just because the Corp has to play around so many cards by the mid game.
This is my most recent list, it won a 22 person SC
3 Likes
I now realize one of the differences between our decks and our play styles for Leela. I am using Logos and don’t run with necessarily the same aggressiveness as a Desperado build would. I am completely fine sitting back and rig building, but that comes from my time as a shaper.
That being said, I think it is time I try out a Desperado build in Leela and I will probably use @Cerberus’ build.
1 Like
I think I’m beginning to see it your way. After a bit more testing, I’m finding it pretty lackluster. Maybe it is because everytime I’ve hostaged for it, it has literally been the next card on my stack 
but -9 is a huge slowdown, and like you said, if instead of just having Hostage, you had literally any economy card, you’d be at +X. For some reason I was not understanding this very obvious concept before, so thanks for taking the time to write it out for me. Basically, the TLDR of all that math I did and this conversation is, Instead of hostage-ing for econ, why wouldn’t you just play MORE econ in that hostage slot?
I was finally going to get to try out Mr. Li last SHL3 game, but then @spags trashed him after a siphon 
1 Like
That is a pure evidence of Mr Li’s greatness, though.
3 Likes
After being berated by @mediohxcore on Wednesday once again when he saw Mr. Li on my board (he hates Mr. Li so much…) and despite my protests that Leela needs all her cash for runs, not Earthrise (“you don’t have enough money in your deck then”) I decided to try an Earthrise Leela list. This one has been winning just as much as the @aandries build, but I have far fewer games in.
The upfront costs of Earthrise are mitigated a bit by all the clicks you have opened up by not needing to draw. Here are the two versions.
Li-eela
Event (20)
3x Account Siphon
2x Dirty Laundry
2x Emergency Shutdown
2x Inside Job
2x Legwork
1x Lucky Find ••
3x Special Order
1x Stimhack •
3x Sure Gamble
Hardware (5)
3x Desperado
3x R&D Interface ••••••
Resource (8)
2x Kati Jones
2x Mr. Li
1x Same Old Thing
2x Security Testing
1x Utopia Shard •
Icebreaker (10)
2x Cerberus “Rex” H2
2x Corroder ••••
3x Faerie
1x Femme Fatale
1x Mimic •
1x Passport
Program (2)
2x Sneakdoor Beta
Earthriseela
Event (17)
3x Account Siphon
2x Emergency Shutdown
2x Inside Job
2x Legwork
2x Lucky Find ••••
3x Special Order
3x Sure Gamble
Hardware (7)
3x Desperado
1x Plascrete Carapace
3x R&D Interface ••••• •
Resource (9)
1x Bank Job
3x Earthrise Hotel
2x Kati Jones
1x Same Old Thing
2x Security Testing
Icebreaker (10)
2x Cerberus “Rex” H2
2x Corroder ••••
3x Faerie
1x Femme Fatale
1x Mimic •
1x Passport
Program (2)
2x Sneakdoor Beta
Not too different really. The second list loses the Stimhack and Utopia Shard for more money (Lucky Find and Bank Job) and Plascrete (since Utopia is gone).
I think @Paranoid used an Earthrise Leela to take down a store champs. Anyone else prefer Earthrise over Li in Leela, and have had success?
1 Like
Yeah, I’ve had good success with Earthrise. I’ve never been keen on Li either, mainly for the fact that he’s a dead draw halfway through the game and you can’t afford throwing three of him in your deck. Earthrise, on the other hand, is almost never dead. It’s debatable whether you should include two or three Earthrise but I’ve been playing three and haven’t had complaints.
1 Like
For what it’s worth (not much, I know), I have a 25-3 record with Earthrise in Leela and a 2-2 record with Li in Leela. I stopped experimenting with Li and went back to Earthrise.
2 Likes