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Kitara Cycle: I bless the rains down in africaaa~


#341

Yeah but you’re supposed to trash counters by the moment the ice is uninstalled, that’s what makes me hesitate : I’m not sure you can “install an installed card”, they would just have used the swap term ?


#342

It would seem really odd to me if MTI is ruled to mean that you can move a piece of ICE already installed on the server being run to the innermost position. I read it as installing a piece of ICE from HQ, but I don’t think it really makes it explicit either way. I assumed the “protecting this server” clause was meant to clarify that the ICE you install from HQ has to go on the server which is being run, not that the target for ICE to be (re)installed is one already protecting the server being run.

But who knows, I’ve certainly been wrong about a lot of cards before, so it wouldn’t surprise me if I was again!


#343

I have still hopes of double cricks (because of the ID), susano / mind games, and those great no ice assets (Bankers, and / or the Jinteki one) + triple Neural.
If you can play Ice Walls on top that would be neat : low-rez MTI (destroyed by Salsette, but whatever).


#344

I’m not sure I am understanding what you are saying correctly, please help me out if I am wrong. My interpretation of Mti Mwekundu is that it allows the corp to install ice from HQ when the trigger condition is met.

My understanding of your interpretation is that the ice installed by Mti is another piece of previously installed ice moved from elsewhere on the board to be the new innermost location. As best I can recall, this would be a new effect that changes the ‘shape’ of servers by changing the number of installed ice on two servers at once.

My understanding is that this interpretation hinges on the phrase:

install a piece of ice protecting…

instead of

install a piece of ice from HQ protecting…

I agree that FFG’s templating can absolutely use some work, but I feel that interpreting the word “install” to mean “relocate a piece of ice on another server to this specific position” is a bit too loose of an interpretation. Other cards that have similar effects have used the words “move” or “swap” or “rearrange” to achieve their effects, which I believe is more clear.

Finally, while FFG does typically specify where a card is installed from (e.g. Advance Assembly Lines) they do not aways (e.g. Bioroid Work Crew). I have never heard anyone suggest that Bioroid Work Crew would install from any location other than HQ, but I do now regret that I did not attempt that at Worlds this year, as that would have been a great time to find out, as despite numerous rulings on that card, none have asked where the installed card comes from, which is technically left open for interpretation.


#345

There is no “ice protecting” in texts of cards which refers to an ice from HQ that is to protect something.

That’s why I think moving an Ice Wall this way makes you lose advancement counters. Swaping/Move/Rearrange doesn’t uninstall if my memory serves.

Now that doesn’t mean this is wrong, because you can read the card like you say : FFG made strange texts and will continue to do so. If it’s what you say, then MTI as a “blue sun negative” sort of corp would be one of the top corp of the game I think.


#346

There is no “ice protecting” in texts of cards which refers to an ice from HQ that is to protect something.

Isn’t there?

Amazon Industrial Zone: Whenever you install a piece of ice protecting this server, you may immediately rez it, lowering its rez cost by 3.

Just the first one I came across, but maybe I’m missing your point?


#347

That rotated out. You can find some other botched text in rotated cards I guess ?


#348

Ok, what about:

Dedicated Technician Team: Use these credits to install ice protecting this server.


#349

First off, I think you make a great argument, I just think the ID is bullshit so I’d rather have my interpretation be correct. That said, I think the wording on the ability is superweird. Not only does it not specify where the ICE is coming from (which by itself is a weak argument), I think the stronger argument is the “protecting this server” which is for some reason worded differently than on, say, Bloom.

Let me put it this way: There is enough leeway in the wording that I think your (far) better argument may be wrong. Also I really want it to be wrong, because fuck asset spam having a virtual DNA Tracker everywhere.

Edit: Also I think that it’s safe to assume that “install”, unless otherwise specified, is always a thing that happens from HQ. However they could potentially introduce card effects that change this assumption.

Editedit: After reading your argument again @BubbaTheGoat, I think the ICE you want to re-install or whatever with MTI should be one already protecting the server and that’s why the clause is so weird


#350

ICE could be installed from various places (ex., from Archives via Restore).

The problem in the ID is that it does not say where the ICE comes from…We could assume that that place is HQ, but definitely ICE does not have to come only from HQ when installed.

I’m not sold on the moving idea, as swaps and moves are terms already in use and there’s no reason why a piece of ICE should have to be installed instead of moved when changing places to a server.


#351

Yeah, that one, I’d agree with you. I could argue/nitpick there but nvm. I’m 3/4 way to reviewing them all.

But honestly, by “not saying HQ”, then it could be from Archives aswell. Since the wording @Labbes & me think about is “healthy” (somehow), then Occam razor principle applies I guess ?

I don’t know. Beta testers should know.

“Ice would lose its counters” is the question I have with the “+install+ instead of +move+”. I think this is a deliberate choice of text.


#352

Oh, I agree! This ID looks annoying at best, and OP at worst to me.

The corp can just keep their most impactful ICE in HQ and have them ready to hit a runner anywhere when they run anything.

The corp can make any single gear-check remote into a multiple gear-check remote with a second ICE in HQ.

Special Offer can be a clickless guaranteed (assuming no AI) Hedge Fund.

There are a lot of possibilities, and a lot of them are bullshit. I also do not like my interpretation of the card because of what it implies. I would ask @jakodrako about Bioroid Work Crew to see if we can establish a similar ruling that will apply to Mti as well.


#353

@BubbaTheGoat Red Sun :slight_smile:
(innermost instead of outermost, within the same run instead of the next turn, gain clicks & danger instead of money & etr)

Or Red Moon ?


#354

Ok, I get the confusion is whether “protecting this server” is telling you where to install it or where to get it from. The original interpretation is

A. (You may install a piece of ice)
B. (Protecting this server in the innermost position)

For A we assume the ice is from HQ, and for B, the whole part is telling you where you can install it: only in the server being run, and only in the innermost position.

The alternative interpretation is

C. (You may install)
D. (A piece of ice protecting this server)
E. (in the innermost position)

D is telling you to pick up an ice from this server, and C and E are telling you to install that ice you picked up in the innermost position.

This interpretation is weird because there’s no reason for it to say install. In fact, the ice is already installed - can you install it again?

In M:tG there is a zone called the stack where all spells go when they are cast, including “permanents” (cards that stay on the battlefield after they resolve from the stack). So in theory you could have an effect that allows you to cast a permanent card - putting it back on the stack, from where it would go back onto the battlefield - although this has never been done in practice. Probably because it’s confusing and pointless.

In netrunner there is no stack. So telling you to install a card that has already been installed would be like saying “put a card from the battlefield onto the battlefield”. Nothing would happen, because the card is already there. If M:tG wants to remove a card from the battlefield very temporarily, it says “exile it, then put it back onto the battlefield”. If netrunner wanted to do this, for example to remove the counters from Quicksand, it could say “remove it from the game, then install it” (or “return it to HQ, then install it” if the corp player could be trusted not to cheat).

I agree that the original interpretation of this card is overpowered, but I think it’s more likely that they printed a busted card than that they completely forgot about the terminology they have used for moving ice in the past.


#355

The weirdness in A+B is bigger imo, because by missing the HQ word, this just mean you can also install from Archives.

Won’t say R&D because that implies looking into it, which is forbidden by the rules, and the card doesn’t say to bypass that. But the corp can perfectly read their archives and install from there if nothing prevent them to.

Then hello, trap spam anyone ? Do you like some Sand Storm with your It’s a Trap! / Mganga ?

I don’t get your problem with C+D+E. The reason to say install over swap or move would be ice counters reseting.

Also Tenin ruling : when a card refers to another one that condition is not specified then consider the target “installed”. It’s not specified, then it is installed.

I’m psi-like sure (=66% sure) this is C+D+E. :stuck_out_tongue:
The card would have been clear as crystal if they said “reinstall” instead of “install”.


#356

Just out of curiosity, do people actually believe the intention of the designer(s) was for ICE to be moved around within the server being run, rather than a fresh ICE to be installed from HQ? I guess their intention is not necessarily the defining factor in deciding how the card should work in practice, but I’m interested to understand why anyone would think the “move an installed ICE to the innermost position” was the intended effect based upon the wording, rather than “install an ICE from HQ”…


#357

Don’t use only “move”, use “reinstall”, or at least use “move then derez without the derez trigger” depending if you beleive counters shouldn’t stay or stay.

I could return you the question : Midori provided no additional install. A+B is a free midori, with no actual need of midori install, with no actual need of installed ice, with no danger of being trashed, each turn you see an ice “somewhere”, until the end of the game : just play multiple OOG, Cricks, Mindgames, Sand Storms, It’s a Trap and win, then : rez OOG, put Sand Storm in front of it and in HQ, Optional Crick in Archives. GG.
Or, put 3x PAD there and you’ve got AGPalana on steroids. Why would one think this is the designer’s intent, too ?

C+D+E is weaker, more in line to power level of Midori / The Twins, like a The Twins with no HQ ice needs, no ice trash but you must pay the rez as an ice get reinstalled.
Now, the same combo works, but not in an infinite loop since it requires you an avoidable Crick that would be mandatory there. And all your Bio-Ethics PAD Bankers would not be some It’s a Trap / Mganga in disguise ? (aka asking you “1 net / corp get 3c later or 1.66 net / trash now ?”) => lock R&D.


#358

I think it’s pretty clear that the designers intended for a fresh ICE to be installed from HQ. I get that omitting the phrase from HQ was probably a mistake on their part, but it seems like a huge leap to start assuming cards can be installed from archives without a card specifying that you can do so (i.e. Crick, Team Sponsorship, etc.).

Like you mentioned in an earlier post, if the intention was to swap ICE around the designers would have likely used the term “swap” instead of being ambiguous about installing something that’s already installed.


#359

Why not install it from your neighbors (left or right) deck in a Tournament? Can I borrow your News Hound? Thank you! It’s not clearly specified or from your opponents deck, he is currently not playing?
Or you install it from your additional cards brought with you by accident in the same sleeves?


#360

Why not install a Thing In The Ice, even? :stuck_out_tongue: