Supplier is also pretty horrible vs MCA…
I think you want lucky finds with ppvp.
Supplier is also pretty horrible vs MCA…
I think you want lucky finds with ppvp.
Couldn’t find the room. It’s why I mentioned Power Tap; If you take those out you can replace 1 Deuces Wild with 2 Lucky Find. (And add in the third Symmetrical Visage…)
Just wanted to say that playing Another Day, Another Paycheck into Deep Data Mining is amazing.
It’s the rest of Sunny that brings me down
It’s definitely something I want to try… but I keep on going back to Freedom Through Equality instead. I mean, you’re going to probably hit at least one agenda, might as well get a extra point out of it as well to keep up.
And then SoT the DDM to go again.
With Globalsec Security Clearance, I can know an agenda is coming up; I prefer Mad Dash.
That said, getting an extra point from FTE along with the Deep Data Mining run is pretty good, too.
Other consideration is that Film Critic prevents all of that from working…
So after playing with the earlier list a little, I do like the PPVP engine, and wish I could get Lucky Find’s in here. Kakugo is a complete pain to deal with, to the point where I want to slot Parasites just to deal with that ICE. But if I slot Parasite, Datasucker becomes better than Multithreader… And I’m still weak to Asset Spam.
Like, really weak to asset spam.
Like, I-might-include-Paricia-because-I-have-tons-of-MU weak to asset spam…
And then I’m out of influence and card slots again.
I think a key with Sunny is to reduce the need to draw cards; trying to have the smallest possible rig, then run 3x of all those cards. For example, Laguna+Symmetrical is very powerful, but it’s two cards. Symmetrical by itself might be better, except we want the increased card draw from Laguna… It’s one reason I went for ProCo; it’s one card that will be used twice a turn in the early game to set up, and falls off less than Laguna+Symmetrical. (Not to say it doesn’t fall off, ever, just that card+cred late game is slightly better than 2 cards+cred, because Clicks to Install are more constrained…)
ProCo is really risky in a meta with yellow decks running MCA, though.
Another nice thing about maximum redundancy is that you can easily play quality time and not stress too much about having to discard some stuff every now and then.
Velasco and ProCo have the same issue - you want to start with it, but your deck has 47 other cards in it.If you’re on PPVP, you have no reason to not run 3 deuces + 3 quality time. Add 3 hotels and some career fairs, and the deck might actually move a bit.
I played some games with redundancy and PPVP builds. Some thoughts:
The redundancy deck can set up pretty fast. In one game I was only 20 cards into my deck and I had everything (but lost to misplays in the end). Cards basically never clog your hand because you can just throw copies out on a whim. Also if you really need to clear a breaker or nexus from your hand, just bang Mopus. If you don’t have Mopus, just dig until you find one, tossing whatever. The primary weakness of this deck is its lack of multi-access. You need at least 2 copies to avoid digging. Also DDM is not as good with Mopus since you only dig 4. Currently it wins in remotes (with Vamp) and Globalsec Clearance. Inf is 3x Mopus, 3x Vamp, 2x Aaron, 3x Quality Time, 3x Career Fair, 3x Scrubber.
There are better Mopus decks out there, but this is playable.
PPVP feels better when it works, but if you draw the cards in the wrong order you’re in for some serious clogging. Like drawing the bulk of your events before a single PPVP. Also breakers and nexus will clog your hand much more, because you may not be able to afford the tempo hit early, and this deck is on 2 copies each so tossing them is not an option (although with Vamp as win condition, needing all breakers is exceedingly rare). Also cards you want to hold on to (Mad Dash, DDM, Paycheck) can intensify the clogging, and once you’re clogged playing something like Quality Time is nasty.
Another issue is not drawing any drip early - you need at least a couple of UWC or Folding to sustain your econ, the event bursts alone are not enough. The upside of this deck is being able to run DDM, and 3x SoT, so you basically always have that option once you dig into it, and you dig quite fast with 3x QT, 3x Earthrise and 3x Deuces. The inf in this deck is 2x Career Fair, 3x Lucky Fund, 3x Deuces, 3x Quality Time, 2x Vamp, 1x DDM, 1x Levy.
Some random notes;
Out of these two, the redundancy build is able to exist after rotation, but needs a new win condition.
Yeah, I think the PPVP build isn’t viable; You generally want to avoid install-order issues with Sunny since they’re going to happen in the wrong order more often than not, because of the large deck size. (For what it’s worth, I found the same problem trying PPVP in Valencia.)
Ended up with literally all of my programs before I got any PPVP or Drip online, that game sucked.
The idea of Mopus is interesting… For an alternate win con that doesn’t rotate immediately, I like Turning Wheel.
Oh, also, I feel that Film Critic is extremely useful right now…
We’ve been talking Sunny a lot over in the #worldsgreatestmoms slack chat, and I thought it might be nice to talk about the state of the Globalsec faction here too. How are things going?
Sunny still has an absolutely busted late game. Mr. Phones got rescued from rotation so we never have to figure out what the Sunny faction is like without him. Drip econ every turn + Security Nexus mean taxing out Sunny is a real challenge.
For this reason, my Sunny philosophy and I think most people’s Sunny philosophy is “how can I keep from losing long enough that I get to live in my super Sunny late game?”
So how does Sunny lose games?
1. Getting rushed out: Sunny has a 50 card deck and breakers that are a bit expensive to get going. Corps often have good success jamming out agendas behind one or two end the run ice before Sunny can get set up and stop them.
2. Fast advance: Sunny doesn’t have any native fast advance prevention, and her amazing tools to assault a scoring remote aren’t quite as useful when the corp doesn’t have a scoring remote.
3. Being extremely jammy: This doesn’t come up that often, but if the corp is able to drag Sunny through a giant remote, let’s say 4 ice deep, repeatedly turn after turn after turn, Sunny is going to run out of money if she’s getting through with her cloud breakers alone.
4. A scarcity of resources: The corp sometimes installs an early Scarcity of Resources and you really do have a lot of excellent resources and sometimes Scarcity just slows you down so much that you can’t execute your game plan.
Of course, Sunny can lose lots of ways, but I think those three are the biggest inherent weaknesses of the faction.
Now, Sunny has 25 influence to play with, and I know a lot of us have been building thinking about spending almost all of that influence of patching up those lose conditions. There are a few options:
Accelerants and speed bumps: You see a lot of Sunny decks playing a bunch of Deuces Wild and Build Script and Process Automation: cards designed to fly through your deck and set up faster. Just being fast is generically good, but it helps especially against rush. I’m also a big fan of Tapwrm is Sunny, which is either an accelerant for you or a speed bump for the corp, their choice. I used to see a lot of Off-Campus Apartment Sunny and I think that’s fallen out of favor. The Supplier is an interesting accelerant that I haven’t tried but sounds really good.
Anti-rush tech: DDoS! Inside Job! AI Breakers like Overmind and Aumakua (maybe with Security Chip support?) There’s a lot of cool options here. I’ve been trying out DDoS and it is fun but I feel like the influence is probably better spent elsewhere.
Anti-fast advance tech: Clot and The Source, those are your two options. Sunny can make The Source work, since Film Critic and Fall Guy can fit in okay. I like Clot better, though you gotta really commit to that with a lot of your influence to make that work. I suppose Employee Strike is also anti-fast advance tech, since Titan is minorly annoyed by it, and CI hates it.
Anti-jamming in a giant server again and again and again tech: Stimhack is nice for grabbing agendas the corp doesn’t think you can get. Security Chip doesn’t see a lot of play in Sunny, but it is a really helpful influence free quasi-Stimhack (or not influence free if you are on Rabbit Hole, I guess).
A counter-current?: Another Day Another Paycheck is influence free and that’s neat, but I have also seen Sunny decks slot Employee Strike thinking about the additional benefit of clearing an unfortunately times Scarcity of Resources.
That’s how I’ve been thinking about Sunny deck building. I know one card I didn’t mention here because it doesn’t really fit neatly into any of the categories described is Deep Data Mining. It’s theoretically really great in Sunny because it is basically always on: her breakers don’t take any mu. I feel like it goes counter to the strategy of building up to an unbeatable late game but it does it in the service of another great win condition: seeing a boatload of cards off of the top of R&D.
What do y’all think? How can we make our mom decks even better? What secret tech are we missing?
Great points, here’s my current list with some thoughts afterwards:
Sunny Lebeau: Security Specialist (Data and Destiny)
25 influence spent (max 25, available 0)
50 cards (min 50)
Cards up to Revised Core Set
Decklist published on NetrunnerDB.
Getting rushed out: I think this still remains the biggest problem with Sunny since she can usually overcome any late-game corp through various tech cards and economic power.
Fast Advance: Clot and The Source are both viable, but I like The Source better because it works better with Tapwrm/Aumakua, synergizes with Career Fair/Film Critic, and is a harder lock. Sunny’s econ can handle the downside if necessary as well. One downside of The Source/Film Critic is antisynergy with the Another Day plan.
Glacier: This isn’t usually as much of a problem as it often goes to late-game.
Scarcity of Resources: This is why I run a current and Sunny’s is as good as any other non-restricted option.
In some ways Clot and Tapwrm are synergistic because they both benefit from the same support cards: Clot wants Sac Cons, Clone Chips, and maybe some Street Peddlers, Tapwrm benefits from those cards as well.
I think the best anti Scarcity plan I’ve run into is just hoping you don’t run into Scarcity. I feel like the number of currents you need to run to reliably block Scarcity is a little high for my tastes.
Your analysis is on point @Sanjay
I wanted to highlight a few things I found important during the testing leading up to Worlds. All of these are very tied to the particular Sunny list I played at Worlds (which was heavily based off @Sanjay’s original Tapwrm list).
Freedom Through Equality was the card that unlocked Sunny for me for this meta. I had tried a lot of different multiaccess in the past (Makers, Legwork, and Turning Wheel) and have never really been happy with any of these options. @Sanjay’s comment on spending influence on not losing comes to mind here. Freedom is essentially multiaccess in the sense that you don’t need to find that last agenda. I would often combo Freedom with a well timed Legwork or even just Freedom into 3 HQ single accesses. Freedom was better than Mad Dash in the sense that it wasn’t strictly a Globalsec combo (I could let Freedom sit over 1 or two turns while I burst out accesses). And Freedom itself cost no influence.
People underestimate moms. The Peddlers help you take advantage of this. Due to Nexus, Sunny is actually incredibly flexible. There are a lot of things to juggle but you can set yourself up for a remote access when the Corp just doesn’t see it. Stimhack is a big part of this too.
Sunny is secretly the new Account Siphon. Ok, this one might be a bit of a stretch but stick with me. When you fire the first Nexus trace, the Corp is probably going to be extremely tempted to pay into it. As Sunny, if you set yourself up right, this is always a mistake for the Corp. You want to set them up to spend about 4-6 credits to run the trace. That is the point where they are Siphoning themselves. Remember, you have infinite money over time, they probably have limited money via IPOs or at least slower drip.
Basic actions are good. I joked that I spent 25% of my clicks on credits and cards. That probably isn’t a joke. Sometimes what you need are credits faster than your drip is giving you. Just spend the clicks on credits. Think of it this way. Let’s say you have 3 drip going and spend your turn clicking for credits. You basically just spent 4 clicks on 7 credits. Guess who does that all the time? Shapers with MO.
Don’t go crazy on link. I ran exactly 3 link in my deck to go up to a max of 5. But in most games I ended at 3 or maybe 4 link. Paying 2 into Nexus to bypass something that would cost every other runner 4+ to break is fine. Don’t over optimize. I really don’t understand the Sunny lists with Rabbit Hole. Hopper is my link of choice because it also draws cards which is sometimes useful.
Regarding consistency, I chose to avoid duplicate cards as much as possible. The exceptions are the breakers and the console. I have installed duplicate breakers vs Skorp in the past which is pretty sweet. I always found 2x consoles to be sufficient because by the time I can afford to play the console I tend to find a copy. I went to 2 copies of Visage last minute because a friend convinced me I didn’t need 3x Hotel. 2x Clot is necessary however. The idea I have is that with 50 cards, I’d rather have every card be useful (so clicking to draw is rarely a bad thing) and be flexible rather than have a lot of duplicates to be more consistent. If I wanted a consistent, linear gameplan, I’d play a 40 card ID.
I really like Maxwell James as a combination link/inside job/vamp.
And it’s totally true: extra link beyond 5 is just wasted (though up to that point, it’s like having more drip, assuming 1 Nexus a turn).
I do like running 3 Nexus, though, since I find I want to see it early so I can start running safe and forcing ICE rezes.
I think the important of point #4 is really key. And I think even more so with the extremely low number of 3x cards you have in your deck… drawing is almost always good, and credits are always good because they move you to the late game.
I love the point about Freedom Through Equality. Also, it’s a pretty bad counter current, but I suppose it’s at least theoretically useful to clear Scarcity?
If you play Freedom and then two resources, you’ve saved yourself a buck and presented a threat to the corp. Seems okay so long as you’re able to capitalize on that threat.
I’ve played Freedom in Geist before, and if you’re already in the SoR hole the 3c really hurts, but if you use it wisely it can be a big swing in your favor.
Personally I prefer Interdiction over Freedom. It pays for itself on the first resource and also adds a significant threat. Normally you would prefer to play it on your own turn but as a way of clearing Scarcity it does work in a pinch. Sadly Another Day is a nombo with the Film Critic and The Source. I am very interested in Corporate “Grant” however. The influence cost is eye-watering but Sunny has money, link and influence and she’ll get good use out of it. Admittedly it should really be called Corporate Geist.
Nothing’s more heartbreaking than entering an Interdiction meta where everyone realizes they just pre-rez Marcus Batty and everything will be fine.
Experimenting with the Freedom plus Mad Dash plus Globalsec Security Clearance combo. Lets you include more Freedoms than you’d usually want which also helps clear Scarcity. Used to run Sunny with the Supplier just so that if my big money cards where buried, I could keep a draw/install rhythm for resources and hardware. When Peace and Tapwrm came out, I retired the Supplier…But it’s looking like a plausible play against Scarcity if you don’t want to run 3x currents.
3x current? You sweet summer child. I run 4 to 6, depending on the day. People will Arxhived Memories their Scarcity against Sunny ::frown::