I think Gheist might be a tag-me runner. If we get more usefull cards with a thrash ability he’ll go through his deck really fast. Which to me sounds like a good place to use event econ. His runs will be most likely cheap so you might not need Kati at all.
The ID shouldnt be viewed as draw power after set up, but as a way to not lose tempo mid-late game. a way to find more tricks instead of clicking to draw and find manually.
and we both know that tempo loss is a big thing in this game…
Maaaybe. But you need 2 distinct pieces of Link to be able to use Forger (or just trust it won’t get trashed and wipe out your entire breaker suite), though I suppose if you’re going Tag-Me you might care less. Perhaps I got carried away when I saw the amount of tag-dodging that just takes a trash of something cheap to evade and got fixated on not staying tagged.
But I feel like the obvious synergy with Underworld Contacts and Forger’s main ability makes it too good to pass up, especially when you consider how cheap all his plays are. Drip econ adds up, and if you only need 2-3 credits each turn, you’ll be able to manage it well enough. I can’t think of anything he’d want to play other than Sure Gamble that costs more than three credits, and most of the 3-drops are econ cards. Maybe Femme or RDI?
[quote=“Amyr_Lozober, post:870, topic:2197”]
The ID shouldnt be viewed as draw power after set up, but as a way to not lose tempo mid-late game. a way to find more tricks instead of clicking to draw and find manually.
[/quote]This is true, but I mostly meant that Clone Chip, SOT, and the B&E Suite all require you having something ready already, you need to be making a run to trigger the B&E boost (and have enough icebreakers that they can break something), you need a program in the bin to use Clone Chip, you need a worthwhile event for SOT… it doesn’t help you set up hardly at all.
But you’re right that it helps you maintain tempo, and that that might end up being enough to be worthwhile.
I was also assuming that with a B&E-heavy suite you might want/need a Levy to get a second run-through if you run out of cards, but there might be better ways of managing things to avoid needing that.
Fair enough, then maybe we can do a deck called Gheist goes off-campus!
Where we use off campus apartment for maximum draw power.
Street peddler now gives you a card when you install it. Let’s you pick the best of 3 cards. And gives you another card when you use it.
Muertos Gang Member gives you a card and a derez and also another 2 cards after the corp has rezzed their cards.
Fall guy gives you 2 cards and 2 credits. Underworld contacts gives you a card.
Man, this ID is so janky. I love it 
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If youre going Supplier/Contacts/B&E Suite, then Andy is probably better. Not sure on any Supplier UC deck as ever being top-tier, but Andy’s the only runner who could make that econ set-up functional.
Maybe embracing Siphon spam is the way to go. SMC can help enable earlier Siphons, and it triggers his ability. Central-only breakers and 9 B&E breakers may do it.
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If u are porting cloud u are obviously getting a ZU so code B&E doesnt seem that useful, instead of sentry B&E why not run fairy? whats left is running the barrier one wich seems good except that when u think that problematic barriers are high david str.
so why run B&E?
“Andy is probably better” is largely a truism, though. But yeah, that’s why I noted that unless there’s something that works well with his ability (and only his) there’s slim chance that the best deck for him won’t run about as well out of Andy – and if it’s not the best Andy deck, why bother? Seems unlikely to be an optimum meta call. The sustained midgame tempo is the only difference, but for the most part Criminals care about the rush more than the midgame.
I don’t think the Supplier is actually great for him, just decentish. But UC is almost mandatory in a deck that already depends on hitting 2 Link, I feel like. Siphon spam might be worthwhile, though, yeah. Hell, could combine Siphon, Muertos, and Crescentus (and maybe a Parasite?) to try and break the Corp’s econ by forcing them to re-rez to keep you out. Not like you have to spend very much to do it.
Maaaybe Crash Space over Plascrete? Helps on money for ditching Siphon tags if you need to, and has an on-trash ability that then matches Plascrete anyway. Combine with a Fall Guy or two and it might survive long enough to be worth it even in ditching tags after a Midseason Replacements.
He’s a jank ID through and through, but I’m going to give him a try all the same. I feel like he’s got a better shot at having a solid deck than Jinteki Biotech does, for instance – maybe even than Fisk does – but he’s no Leela or Hayley or Haarpsichord.
[quote=“Amyr_Lozober, post:874, topic:2197”]
If u are porting cloud u are obviously getting a ZU so code B&E doesnt seem that useful, instead of sentry B&E why not run fairy? whats left is running the barrier one wich seems good except that when u think that problematic barriers are high david str.
[/quote]Because of their ability?
There are about 10 Ice that might realistically ever have more than 3 subroutines, most of them never see play. If you can get the entire B&E suite out plus one other breaker you break Curtain Wall for free. Assuming you run Zu and B&E, it’s 7 credits to install all of them – and, yeah, 10 clicks. Trying to work out a solution for that part.
Faerie is good, and should definitely also be run, but Faerie/Mimic/Femme, Corroder, and Zu provide low-strength solutions so your B&E stuff can hit the big ones. I don’t want to be using Zu on Orion or Viktor 2.0 if I can help it, but a supported Crowbar gets through either for effectively free, making that power run better. Likewise, Faerie breaks Ichi for 2-3 credits, but Shiv can do it for free and also give you a card.
And out of Geist, that’s the kicker. Faerie doesn’t draw you a card. Nor does D4V1D. Those are great cards, again, and will likely get included anyway – at least at first – but it’s the ability to sustain some tempo against midrange decks (possibly combined with Crescentus to force expensive derezzes) that might possibly make them worthwhile.
Again: Geist might not be worth playing, but if he is, the B&E Suite seems like a big part in making him work.
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Like I said before, the best way, right now anyway, seems to run HI/B&E with a central suite. Combined this gives you a pretty cheap rig that can get into any server pretty efficiently with added benefit of card draw.
Not sure about that, at least not entirely. Breach is mostly for breaking big barriers with multiple subroutines for cheap, Corroder is better for the small stuff with only one subroutine. Passport and Alias are decent enough in combination, but Breach seems to overlap unfavorably with Spike.
Shame on the influence costs for RDI/ME/Medium, though. They all seem like potentially useful things for Geist. Perhaps the econ hits of Siphon and Crescentus alone will be sufficient, but I’m not sure that’s likely.
I was thinking more along the line of needing to save influence for Clone Chips and SMCs.
Breach really isn’t that inefficient compared to Corroder. The problem with Breach compared to Corroder, in my mind, has always been it’s limitation as central only. Why run Breach when Corroder serves the same function and can allow you into a remote?
But with Geist, we can use Spike to threaten and break remotes for free and use Breach to hit centrals for about the same efficiency as Corroder, saving us influence for something else. This goes back to what I think the biggest upside of the HI/B&E breakers are which is they allow you to make a single run essentially for free, assuming you don’t need to use E3s or anything. This allows the Runner to almost focus exclusively on generating money for runs on centrals, which would seem to be a very powerful thing.
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People said the same about Leela when she came out and it turned out that the answer was not to obsess too much about the ID power. I’ve a feeling he might surprise a few people.
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I agree. Unlike Exile, which he is compared to, there are a significant number of cards which can leverage his ability. Plus, he gets to play the blue cards.
Plus, exile gives you draw in the faction with the best draw in game.
Gheist will give you draw in the faction with the worst (currently) draw in the game.
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could someone plz explain why is leela so good? im srry but i really dont see why ppl play her as she doesnt have andy consistency and her ability seems to function so rarely. I guess if it works in the middle of your turn u might be able to make another cheap run somewhere else, but it still kinda cost the corp 1 click only. why not play Gabe or any other Criminal ID?
Gabe is about constant value.
Leela is about two things -
1)making, and then abusing a opening.
2) threatening number 1.
Say it’s early game, and there’s a single Ice on HQ. If any other criminal runs, you usually don’t rez that ice, because you want to avoid telling them what Icebreaker to install/tutor up to land an account siphon.
If you have an agenda in hand and the runner is Leela, however, you’re in a pickle. If you rez, she can get the appropriate breaker and Siphon, if you don’t, she might just steal the agenda, bounce the ice, and then siphon anyway.
Similarly, most corp scoring patterns don’t have room to re-install ice on the same turn - meaning that Leela get’s a turn with that ice out of the way.
Finally, she can stop a partially scored agenda by stealing another one from centrals.
A minor note - it usually only costs one click to reinstall, true, but it might cost credits as well, if there are other ice on the server.
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I have it under good authority that every game of Netrunner featuring Leela goes like this.
But seriously, her ability opens windows to aggressively pressure the Corp in a way that no other Runner does. We have a 680-post thread here discussing why she’s so good, plenty of reading material there if you’re genuinely curious.
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Well there is that whole thread…
As for my play experience with her it’s been, her ability turns what is already bad for the Corporation, the Runner stealing an agenda, into an even worse situation. Additionally, it turns the what the Corp already considers a bit of a tempo hit, scoring an agenda, into an even bigger tempo hit by having something bounced back.
Example from a game I recently played:
Legwork, steal an agenda, bounce a face-down Jackson, run archives, steal 5 more points from archives, gg.
Never mind the fact that there are plenty of times where you top deck an agenda off of R&D first turn, bounce HQ Ice, Account Siphon, purge tags, then proceed to laugh at the Corps misery.
So while Andy will consistently set you up in a position where you can win the game, Leela’s ability actively helps you win the game.
Granted, against glacier type deck, it can be more difficult. But I feel that reflects more on the Criminal faction in general, which tends to be better in the early game anyway.
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True, and that might be the better route. I was assuming you’d use a combination on each server, blowing out big ice with the B&E suite and using other breakers for the small stuff – letting you attack scoring servers as needed while making power runs on centrals and Crescentusing problem ice that’ll hurt the corp to rez again.
Breach is only inefficient in that circumstance, where you’re wanting it for Wall of Static or Wraparound or Ice Wall.
[quote=“bayushi_david, post:879, topic:2197”]
People said the same about Leela when she came out and it turned out that the answer was not to obsess too much about the ID power. I’ve a feeling he might surprise a few people.
[/quote]I’ve always thought Leela was going to be pretty good, but I agree he might be decent. I just have a hard time thinking he’ll be Tier One while Andy is around, but I’m the kind of middling competetive person that takes an interest in solid Tier Two lists.
But as things stand (and has been reported from the spoiler-ers) he seems like he’ll be solid fun but not on par with Leela or Andy.
The comparison to Exile only stands in comparison with Andy and Leela – but he’s going to be better than Exile is, I’d wager.
[quote=“Amyr_Lozober, post:882, topic:2197”]
why not play Gabe or any other Criminal ID?
[/quote]I think other folks have largely covered this, but I want to emphasize how much she throws off Corp play.
Say you’re Weyland and have a Hostile Takeover, an Atlas, and three ice in your opener. What do you do? Normally, I’d keep it, probably Ice-Ice-Credit turn one and then score the Hostile, but against Leela that means that scoring your Hostile next turn will bounce an ice if you don’t have it rezzed. Or she can run on both R&D and HQ, threatening a steal and forcing you to rez the ice there to keep her out, meaning that even if you score the Hostile after she can no longer bounce you’re playing catch-up on money, not bullying her with it. But do you want to mulligan a hand like that, really?
I’ve had players do Hostile Takeover turn 1 to avoid this, which is great for them, but means I get to Siphon or hit R&D to my heart’s content.
[quote=“Danwarr, post:885, topic:2197”]
Granted, against glacier type deck, it can be more difficult. But I feel that reflects more on the Criminal faction in general, which tends to be better in the early game anyway
[/quote]This is where I feel Geist might have the potential to shine. If he can do denial sufficiently well, his power will let him keep going, drawing replacement cards as he uses them, meaning he’ll actually get through his deck.
That said, I don’t think anti-Glacier Leela is impossible, just trickier. But I don’t see her losing ground to it much if the meta shifts post-Clot the way other Criminals might.
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Geist:
- Autoscripter or Savoire Faire?
- Get up to 2 link somehow (Forger over Desperado/Logos, really?)
- B&E suite
- Maker’s Eye + Legworks (4-6 influence)
- Clone Chips (6 influence)
- Zu + Mimic + Breach (3 influence) (Influence full)
Success?
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Autoscripter was my first thought with him. Getting a card draw out of crescentus is cool, but spending no clicks (after autoscripter is installed) to de-rez an ice and draw a card during a run? That’s worth exploring.