Here’s how I see it: RP is to Tennin like EtF is to CI.
What I mean by that is that Tennin and CI both enable plays that are fundamentally impossible (or at least much more complicated) in other identities. For instance, scoring a Nisei from installed but unadvanced. If you want to do that in Tennin, all you need to do is install Nisei into a server and have no successful run happen the next turn. If you wanted to do that in RP, it would require either a Biotic, or a ToL with some already existing counters. With just one ToL, Tennin can conceivably chain an Unorthodox into a Future Perfect from a state where the initial facedown card was not advanced. Think about it - that’s 4 points conceded to the corp because you didn’t steal a goddamn 1-pointer.
This, in a faction where you have several pretty deadly traps that can’t be advanced, is nothing to scoff at. Another strong thing that Tennin has going for it is that while you’re doing well (i.e. the runner can’t really get in), you actually have 4 clicks per turn for scoring purposes, rather than just 3. It’s a bit like a more limited version of ManUp that is easier to achieve.
RP doesn’t do this, it tends to actively prolong the period where you’re doing well instead. If even the prolonged window isn’t enough, though, you might just be done.
Sidenote: The RP to EtF comparison isn’t quite valid, naturally - EtF is “just economy”, where RP is click compression. This is something that enables certain cards (Sundew and asset-based econ in general) in a unique way that EtF’s extra money doesn’t. EtF enables stuff too (by making you more rich), but it’s less of a unique effect in that regard.
(in case you’re wondering about an example of such kind of play for CI, it would be those crazy “SEA yo’ ass and quadruple scorch you through two carapaces with only two copies of Scorch in my deck” turns that by definition require, like, a million different cards in hand :D)
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Sorry, I’m not seeing this. Explain?
Curse you for explaining my tech perfectly and thus stealing all those likes I would have gotten for it! 
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Couldn’t you just have installed The Future Perfect turn 1, then turn 2 Tennin + Trick + AA to score?
Also I don’t think Unorthodox Predictions guarantees the Runner won’t make a run. I can still pay for Pup. I can still beat Shinobi traces. Komainu is non-lethal. Katana or Tsurugi, I can just hold cards.
Of course, you could just name barrier (and of course, have appropriately placed barriers). And certainly, it’s a good use of the card. But of all the cards in the combo, Unorthodox is the least important and doesn’t really do anything that money + Ice doesn’t already do.
Sure. You’re both scoring 1 less point and risking two more points stolen by the runner from the remote, but you could have 
Yes, those are pretty bad for you if you’re aiming for the UP plan. This is why my deck has exactly zero copies of all the mentioned pieces of ICE, combined.
Not all ICE packages can leverage UP properly, but those that can tend to have a good synergy with Tennin - which is why I went with the plan in this ID and not in the others.
- If you have unlimited money and rezzed ICE, and the runner has unlimited money and ICEbreakers, he gets in.
- If you have zero credits, rezzed ICE and an Unorthodox you just scored, and the runner has unlimited money and ICEbreakers, he can’t get in.
I’d say that’s definitely “doing something money+ICE doesn’t already do”.
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Sure, literally speaking. But most of the time functional equivalence is all that matters.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think what you are suggesting is bad, I just don’t see the argument compelling me away from the more obvious 2 point agenda options. NAPD works installed. Nisei will basically do the same thing. Braintrust is easy to score.
Daisy chaining Predictions into the Future works, but I’m not sold on it.
What Ice do you use btw?
Ah, shit… you just got schooled, son! 
Chaining Predictions into the Future isn’t actually my preferred play, it’s just something you pull if you’re already sitting at 3 points and the window opens up. Then it’s “if you let me score this 1-pointer, I just win”. Most of the time, the agenda you want to chain into is Nisei - mostly because one Nisei can easily chain into another Nisei, which makes that initial 1-pointer a 5-point play, ultimately.
Lemme just play it one more time on saturday, and then I’ll post and discuss my list.
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heh. not really, given that he doesn’t even like the play that much, he’s just arguing the technicalities of it (which he’s free to have).
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I’m not arguing the technicalities, I’m saying your statement is just flat out wrong 
Also, just because you’re claiming there is functional equivalence doesn’t make it so. Having played with both mega-rich glaciers and Predictions, I’m pretty certain they are two different things. “Money and ICE” stops runs from happening too often over multiple turns, where UP stops them completely for one turn. Completely different use cases.
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As promised, here’s my Tennin list.
Play it as a rush deck that transitions into a glacier and see how you like it.
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Looks super fun. Really smart deckbuilding.
looks pretty mean. no jackson is tough for me though especially when the future perfects start to pile up in the hand.
There used to be two of him, until I found that I’d rather have two Successful Demoes. It’s a meta call, really - Jackson would make the Noise / Anarch matchup much better, but Demoes rock vs. Criminal. I’ve been playing around with this thing for over a month now, there have been quite a few versions of it. This is the one I like best, but it’s definitely a matter of playstyle.
@JohnnyCreations Thanks!
I like it! Very interesting take on Tennin, I will certainly try it out. I have a revised version of my taxing Tennin build, which I’ll post after the regionals tomorrow.
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ive been seeing a decent amount of noise. i think the idea of installing a virus for an “access” is a lot more appealing to runner players than trying to figure out how to efficiently run against the tax decks right now.
Here’s my much updated taxing Tennin list.
Identity: Jinteki: Tennin Institute: The Secrets Within
Cards: 49 / 45
Agenda points: undefined / 20
Influence: 15 / 15
Agenda (9)
3x NAPD Contract
3x Nisei MKII
3x The Future Perfect
Asset (5)
3x Jackson Howard ●●●
2x Shock!
Ice (19)
3x Eli 1.0 ●●●
3x Ice Wall ●●●
2x Ichi 1.0 ●●●●
2x Inazuma
2x Komainu
2x Pup
2x Quandary
1x Tollbooth ●●
2x Tsurugi
Operation (11)
3x Celebrity Gift
3x Hedge Fund
3x Medical Research Fundraiser
2x Trick Of Light
Upgrade (5)
3x Caprice Nisei
2x Hokusai Grid
I took this list to a close 9th place at the second Toronto regionals (59 players), missing the top 8 by a razor thin strength-of-schedule margin. I think this build is significantly stronger than my original one. I totally switched up the agenda mix, this one works much better. You try to win with 2 2 pointers and a 3 pointer. The trick of lights let you score an unadvanced future perfect from face down (use your Tennin advancement token, then trick of light and double advance), or sometimes you just double trick of light a Nisei.
I like the Ichi’s, especially behind Inazuma- plus, its nice to have a sentry that’s not so vulnerable to parasite. I’m not a hundred percent sold on the Hokusai grids- they can fake people out since they assume they are Caprice’s, and they are nice on centrals or to fake an agenda, but there might be a better option. I’d love to hear any feedback or suggestions.
i like snare over hokusai. with legworks going off all over the place setting up a killing hand isnt hard to do. people are way more likely to use multi access cards against non PE jinteki decks.
I took the PeekaySK list (with only one card change) to a small 10-player tournament today in Tacoma. I came in second. The Tenin went 3-2.
The Unorthodox Predictions very rarely came into play; once when stolen, once to cap off a win after scoring two Future Perfects. Compared to my other Tenin tax deck (which is pretty similar to benjaminwald05’s deck) this one seems to have a rough time vs. Atman. I played Katman 3 times (!) which accounted for the two losses. The lack of Tsurugis, Elis and Pups hurt there. Enigmas were actually quite useful. The Grim, Inazuma duo which are normally fearsome, are not quite as comforting vs Atman.
I played a Kit deck once, and noticed that there are a lot of codegates in this deck! But I was able to endure random shots on HQ without serious damage until I could draw some non-codegates to set up first.
The one change I made was to swap out one Wall of Static for a Neo-Tokyo Grid. I thought that could actually help quite a bit when scoring all those Clone Retirements, and when chaining UP’s and Niseis. I think there was one game where I wished the NTG was a WoS (Kit), and one where I played the NTG and it actually paid off well. It is really great when you get a Tenin advance on an agenda, and it pays you too!
Anyway, that’s the feedback from out here. I think I might try to swap in a Swordsman or two after my trying experiences with our Katman-heavy meta. Might be a less expensive way to eat clone chipped sharpshooters than firing off Grim. Maybe -1 NTG/WoS -1 Grim, +2 Swordsman? Maybe a Fast Track? Serious rushing seems like the best medicine vs. Atman.
Edit: (to add tidbit) one game I scored two Future Perfects via the install, no advance method discussed above. That was fun 
The Atman matchup can be rough, but it mostly comes down to how you build your servers - against Shapers, I just don’t do Inazuma -> Grim, saving them to lead into other stuff instead.
Overall, I’ve found that it’s really easy to build your servers wrong, and it takes a bit of practice to do it right, depending on the matchup.
The amount of code gates was a huge boon to me in all kit games so far, as eating her ability on all centrals asap is paramount.
Swordsman is pointless in the Atman matchup, in my experience. They tend to have at least one of:
- Femme
- Deus X
- Sharpshooter
- Insta-parasite
Ask of which make Swordsman a sad puppeh.
