The MaxX Thread

[GreedyGuts]

A bit of good advice I got recently that I think might help some folks with MaxX analysis:

“Milling a card doesn’t matter. It’s the same as it being on the bottom of your deck and not being drawn. Milling an answer sucks, but it’s fundamentally no different from just never seeing it.”

So long as you draw some of your recursion (at least one Levy or a means to GET one, especially), it can be even better. Clone Chip becomes a quasi-tutor, for instance.

[bayushi_david]

@GreedyGuts

“Milling a card doesn’t matter. It’s the same as it being on the bottom of your deck and not being drawn. Milling an answer sucks, but it’s fundamentally no different from just never seeing it.”

Unless you run tutors that only look through the stack (e.g. Special Order) (it’s an edge case, but an important one I think for building MaxX decks).

[zeroisnine]

@PeekaySK

I don’t know, man - the way LA usually gets played in my games is “drop LA*, take the bare minimum off so I’m not screwed if it gets trashed the next turn”. After that, it’s often sitting there as two or three copies of on-demand Sure Gamble, ready to be used. I’ll spend my whole turn on it pretty much only if I’m tagged, to make it a less appealing target.

In fact, the biggest disadvantage I see to Day Job is that you’ll be spending your whole turn “clicking for credits” (unless various stimulants and/or hot bounty hunter chicks are involved, of course).

*and this is where the problem has lain until now - having enough money to be able to drop it reliably. This is the thing I expect both Day Jobbin’ and all the new awesome card draw to change.

You are still clicking for credits, even if you choose to do it later. So broadly speaking, you are still investing a lot of clicks into it when you play the card. The thing is, if you don’t want to click for it soon, it’s difficult to assess whether or not it was a good play or not, because you didn’t need to play it, so you can’t say that it’s doing what you need it to do.

I don’t know if Day Job is really going to make Anarchs flush with cash now, but if that’s the analysis then you probably want more Liberated Accounts.

@PeekaySK

But Day Job does get better the sooner you have the option to play it, should a comfortable window open. I can think of quite a few decks/matchups where a first turn facecheck into a double-iced opening could be disastrous, or at the very least, needlessly risky. In those situations, “Gamble/credit, LA, take 4 off twice” hasn’t been too terrible as it leaves you set up for a really brutal early game. Dropping a turn 1 Day Job in those moments might be worth consideration, at least.

Is it worth thinking of it less as an econ card and more as another punishment tool for the corp handing you tempo?

I general I think that is a good way to think of econ in this game. Also, don’t forget being locked out of servers and needing credits. If you are at 2 credits, a Sure Gamble is 3 clicks away from being playable. It’s not pretty, but sometimes you just need to get things as quickly as possible, and Day Job is just faster than the alternatives.

But yeah, I definitely think of Day Job as being a lot better early game, because it’s hits a window where it’s a great play or you basically force it in where you don’t want it to be. Econ, in general, is much better early game then it is later in the game. You pretty much always need it, but getting up early means you are less likely to need to click for credits when you suddenly need to play something later down the line.

[ericbtool]

day job could be a pretty demoralizing econ card to draw late game in many instances so I see the hesitance in having three. could be it’s value goes up if you know your deck induces virus purges and you can hold it until then. If you run joshua you can also hold dayjob to do a dayjob+stimhack run on some obscene tower, so getting it late in that situation wouldn’t be so bad.

[hypomodern]

@Xenasis

The difference is that you don’t really use up the card to play a Magnum Opus - it’s kind of still there.

You definitely need to use a card to play Magnum Opus. Once the Opus is in play, however, then yes, as @mediohxcore points out it changes the situation going forward. Clicking Opus and clicking to play a card are no longer perfect substitutes! If you have a gameplan around getting Opus into play quickly, then of course it changes the comparisons of other card types: Easy Marks become largely pointless (since now we do include clicks on both sides of the comparison), Armitage becomes completely pointless (paying again to provide the same effect as Opus), etc.

@kiv

Future Easier Mark is called Desperado + Security Testing Once you get it on the table, it’s like putting an Easy Mark in your hand every turn without having to draw it (as long as you have a target).

It’s close to that, yes, but as you point out it requires a target and a run — but to it’s favor, anything that further modifies the value of a successful run (Datasuckers add runner value, Power Shutdown subtracts it) pushes that click further. Before you have any of that in play, if you have 0c, need 3c and want to end up with 3 clicks left, it is Easy Mark or nothing ;).

@GreedyGuts

“Milling a card doesn’t matter. It’s the same as it being on the bottom of your deck and not being drawn. Milling an answer sucks, but it’s fundamentally no different from just never seeing it.”

@bayushi_david

Unless you run tutors that only look through the stack

@bayushi_david’s point is important: MaxX is going to be great in proportion to which we build decks that amplify her advantage (seeing more cards) and either minimize (Levy-style reset) or judo (install-from-trash) her disadvantage.

The real question is how many different cards do we need to get into play in order to win a game of netrunner these days? What types of cards are those (e.g. programs vs. hardware, etc)? MaxX will smooth out normal distributions, but opens up a new form of downside risk exposure: she might self-mill all copies of an important piece of one’s game-winning rig. If we can use retrieval run, say, to turn self-milling into an asset, we’re further ahead of the curve! My excitement comes from the conjunction of a) we know + card draw is great, b) sometimes we like having programs in the heap, and c) this is a new type of scenario for us ! Great card design, imo.

[x3r0h0ur]

@hypomodern

The real question is how many different cards do we need to get into play in order to win a game of netrunner these days? What types of cards are those (e.g. programs vs. hardware, etc)? MaxX will smooth out normal distributions, but opens up a new form of downside risk exposure: she might self-mill all copies of an important piece of one’s game-winning rig. If we can use retrieval run, say, to turn self-milling into an asset, we’re further ahead of the curve! The exciting comes from the conjunction of a) we know + card draw is great, b) sometimes we like having programs in the heap, and c) this is a new type of scenario for us ! Great card design, imo.

Another more interesting thing to think about…how important is the hidden information game to the runner. The only thing the corp doesn’t know is what the runner is holding. If Maxx develops archetypes, and which ‘type’ of Maxx you’re running can become face up turn 1. Knowing that I’m facing an anatomy of anarchy anarch is valuable information…as I would play it vastly different than if I were playing standard noisecachemill. I’m interested to see how giving up half of the runner’s innate advantage will effect corp play.

[hypomodern]

@x3r0h0ur

Another more interesting thing to think about…how important is the hidden information game to the runner.

I think MaxX’s response to this is to pound a couple of shots, scream PUNK ROCK MOTHER********S, and just start breaking the corp’s stuff. Every time. She’s not gonna be subtle .

[Chris_Pedersen]

To me THE advantage of arm. Is that it allows me to recover from 0 credits. Which as anarch, I used to find myself at quite frequently.

With thle new economy cards, not so much.

[Infinitum]

So speaking Economy, how do people value Power Nap outside of Shaper? MaxX looks uniquely qualified to abuse it what with the self milling and Anarch recursive tricks. Granted you have to play an awful lot of… situational cards in order to get the most out of it, but even chaff like Frame Job looks palatable when it essentially reads “whenever ~ is put into your heap, gain at least 3 credits (eventually)”.

[strundle]

@zeroisnine

If you are at 2 credits, a Sure Gamble is 3 clicks away from being playable. It’s not pretty, but sometimes you just need to get things as quickly as possible, and Day Job is just faster than the alternatives.

Except that Day Job also eats those three clicks. Really, Cred-Cred-Cred-Sure Gamble only returns one less credit than Day Job, and that’s in the scenario when Day Job is at it’s strongest (sitting on exactly 2 credits).

[moistloaf]

is pretty much everyone resigned to playing Levy in MaxX?

this is maximum punk rock guys
levy kiddies go home =D

[Chris_Pedersen]

except thats the wrong answer you can only fit 3 sure gambles in a deck and you need more econ to run.the right way to look at it is day job fllls one of a decks econ decks slotst. Whether it’s appropriate text depends on your deck construction.

[Chris_Pedersen]

Resigned? Hell no. I plan on maxx and inject and wild siding and laughing maniacally when I levy.

That and when people try to scorch me…

[strundle]

@Chris_Pedersen

except thats the wrong answer you can only fit 3 sure gambles in a deck and you need more econ to run.

Sure, I’m not saying Day Job is a bad card, I’m just saying that it’s not exactly much “faster” than Sure Gamble. I think a better comparison is probably Lucky Find – and in most decks, I’d say Lucky Find is the superior option, but Day Job is a great way to save a couple of influence in that “recovery turn” economy slot.

[strundle]

@moistloaf

is pretty much everyone resigned to playing Levy in MaxX?

My hunch is that planning to Levy is the wrong move – instead, you should be planning to use those free clicks to win before it becomes an issue. Trope might be worth it to buy you a turn or two and to serve as a tutor once your stack is empty, though…

[nobody]

This is presumptuous but I think when people put Levy in MaxX as an emergency late game ‘oh no i milled the wrong thing’ card they’re probably building the wrong kind of deck for this ID. It’s inclusion should be more along the lines of pre-paid kate or chaos theory decks where you’ve just blown through your powerful event and econ cards and now you get to do it all over again.

[PeekaySK]

@nobody

This is presumptuous but I think when people put Levy in MaxX as an emergency late game ‘oh no i milled the wrong thing’ card they’re probably building the wrong kind of deck for this ID.

I feel like MaxX is one of those IDs where the instruction manual on how to build the deck is written right there on the card, in the flavor quote section. Are you finding yourself actually giving a fk? Go back to the drawing board and don’t return until you’ve learned to stop worrying and not give a fk!

(burning three inf on Levy definitely qualifies as giving a f**k)

[bayushi_david]

@strundle

Trope might be worth it to buy you a turn or two and to serve as a tutor once your stack is empty, though…

I think Trope is a pretty dreadful card, but burning through your deck with Inject etc then have a deck entirely of Account Siphons at the end has a certain appeal.

[x3r0h0ur]

We need a card like chancellor in Dominion. 2 bucks and discard the whole fucking thing.

Minimum fucks given, just like if you ever buy it in Dominion.

[anon34370798]

Building something funny rigth now

**** you mother*******

MaxX: Maximum Punk Rock (Order and Chaos)

Event (54)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
3x Déjà Vu (Core Set)
3x Forked (Order and Chaos)
3x Frame Job (Opening Moves)
3x Inject (Up and Over)
3x Knifed (Order and Chaos)
3x Lawyer Up (True Colors) •••
3x Power Nap (Double Time) ••••• •
3x Queen’s Gambit (Double Time)
3x Retrieval Run (Future Proof)
3x Scrubbed (The Spaces Between)
3x Singularity (Double Time)
3x Special Order (Core Set) ••••• •
3x Spooned (Order and Chaos)
3x Steelskin (Order and Chaos)
3x Stimhack (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Vamp (Trace Amount)

Hardware (6)
3x Cyberfeeder (Core Set)
3x Spinal Modem (What Lies Ahead)

Resource (9)
3x Earthrise Hotel (The Source)
3x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)
3x Wyldside (Core Set)

Icebreaker (3)
3x Eater (Order and Chaos)

Program (9)
3x Datasucker (Core Set)
3x Keyhole (True Colors)
3x Parasite (Core Set)

15 influence spent (max 15)
81 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.