Thanks. Looks good.
QCC might be a little clunky with Faerie, Iāll have to play with it some.
I havenāt really run into a situation where I wanted Faerie after Switchblade was out ā so I guess the worst case scenario would be if unpreventable damage caused you to discard a program from your grip. Even in that somewhat unlikely situation, this would be mid-late game and only effect your least desirable program.
I have, however, run into situations where itād be nice to have MU for an additional cloak. Dyson seems like too big of a tempo hit to want to do in most games but QCC would allow for that with just a click.
Datasucker + Cloak allows for some pretty damn efficient runs.
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It isnāt much different than the last list I posted, cutting medium freed up more influence/memory. Been jumping between shutdown and a third legwork lately
Andromeda: Dispossessed Ristie (Humanityās Shadow)
Event (14)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
1x Inside Job (Core Set)
1x Special Order (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
3x Legwork (Honor and Profit)
Hardware (9)
3x Desperado (Core Set)
1x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
2x R&D Interface (Future Proof) ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢
3x Silencer (Double Time)
Resource (10)
3x Kati Jones (Humanityās Shadow)
3x Security Testing (Honor and Profit)
1x Ghost Runner (The Spaces Between)
3x Earthrise Hotel (The Source)
Icebreaker (9)
2x Corroder (Core Set) ā¢ā¢ā¢ā¢
1x Yog.0 (Core Set) ā¢
1x Femme Fatale (Core Set)
1x Atman (Creation and Control) ā¢ā¢ā¢
1x Passport (Honor and Profit)
2x Switchblade (Up and Over)
1x Cerberus āRexā H2 (All That Remains)
Program (3)
3x Datasucker (Core Set) ā¢ā¢ā¢
15 influence spent (maximum 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to The Source
2 Likes
What ICE are you hitting with the Atman that makes it worth rolling with?
I donāt doubt itās usefulness, but I wanted to know your thought process on the include. I would think increasing the special orders would increase the value of Atman. Perhaps thatās worth considering.
just been trying it out lately because I had a bunch of free influence, itās mostly eli, lotus field and merlin, but putting it at 5 is also very nice against blue sun for long sentry remotes. Second special order might be worth it now (in place of rex or the floating 3rd legwork/shutdown), the extra click is kinda brutal though
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These Andy lists typically have enough money. They print it using John, Security Testing, Desperado and a bunch or recurring credits to pay for their breakers. If youāre dying for MU surely the much less faffy Dyson Mem Chip is the correct solution. I know itās bad, but not QCC bad.
Soā¦ Let me get this straight. You ditch 3x Cloak + Refractor in favor of a bunch of niche expensive decoders and Datasuckers. Basically, you play Andysucker with a toolbox of clunky conventional ānoisyā decoders and Switchblade + 3 Silencer + 1 Ghost Runner as a sentry solution for high-strength ICE where Femme fails.
Sorry, I just donāt buy it. First, you are overloading your MU a bit - your final rig is Corroder, Datasucker, Switchblade, a random Decoder and one slot for utility program thatās either another Decoder to support the hole in the first one, or Femme, or Atman.
You canāt have a ācompleteā rig at all. You can have only one of:
- Atman for Lotuses/Elis.
- Femme for small sentries (her absence may lead to some srs problems lategame since meta is very sentry-heavy).
- Second Decoder (Likely Rex) for Code Gates that first Decoder canāt get through (Lotuses or Quandaries on remote).
In any case there is a hole in your endgame rig, and you will lose some of your games due to smart Corps exploiting these holes.
But thatās just half of the problem. The main part is the fact that running expensive decoders and Atman/Femme is a much more expensive/inefficient solution than 2 Cloaks that cost 1 credit to install and then feed you stealth money every turn.
Oh, also thereās deckspace argument. 5 utility programs + 3 Datasucker is 8 deckspace, Refractor + 3 Cloaks is 4 deckspace. Guess what option is leaner and more consistent.
And finally for a deck relying on toolbox of 5 singleton programs of which you likely need two exact ones for any given boardstate you run just one Special Order? Well, I understand that once you make a choice to play 8 cards instead of 4 cards to solve Code Gates and small Sentries you have to cut something, but of all things in the deck - Special Orders?
Not convinced.
4 Likes
In that case, grab the list and go play a couple games with it. The deck has the ability to morph into various things, depending on whatās best for the current corp itās facing (which is enabled by Suckers in a way that Cloaks wouldnāt) - the one-of Atman especially is crazy strong, and donāt forget that youāre still a Criminal with all your pressure tools the corp simply needs to respect.
In all of my games yesterday, exactly one of your objections was relevant - the MU thing, and that was in a game where I drew my first Desperado as card #30 (and havenāt drawn any Earthrises by that point, either). Other things are simply non-issues - like the small sentries problem. You can actually get through {number of Silencers} sentries per turn just fine, 'cause your Suckers will beā¦ well, fed. If you should ever approach a lockout, you can both win off a different server, and just drop an Atman at an opportune strength setting, which will take care of most sentries on your desired target server by itself, thus taking the load off of Switchblade. A similar explanation lends itself to each of your other points, reallyā¦ but seriously, just grab the list and play it, youāll see.
So, yeah - not exactly worried.
p.s. and by the way, I used the flex slot for a second Special Order, but I can totally see @samrsā point about it being usually redundant - it was the most discarded card for sure. Keeping it only makes sense if youāre super-extra scared of getting draw-fucked.
Ok, lets start from the top
Most of my Decoders are pretty affordable, datasucker + rex/yog makes everything not named a lotus field literally free. I get that youāre trying to be a unique special snowflake and not play andy sucker, but youāre calling free expensive (unless youāre talking install cost, in which case passport is just as quick and rex is not much more expensive). Even then, yog pays for itself after 2-3 codegates
I also donāt use femme for small sentries, I use femme for tollbooths, datasucker + switchblade destroys small sentries.
the ideal endgame rig is dependent on what Ice i see, but if you want a generic one: switchblade, atman at 4, yog, corroder and 1 datasucker, I donāt see a hole in it. MU means you occasionally have to make a decision, but it isnāt any tighter than cloak decks.
If you mean more consistent in the sense that you more consistently need the same cards, then sure, but you need a 1-of (4 counting special order) and a 3-of to break a codegate above 2 strength, and I have different acceptable answers. I have a 76% chance of having a way to break a big codegate in my opener, you have a 28% chance, that is not more consistent. Also, for all your talk of deck space, Iām spending 4 less influence to throw around at whatever I want (currently an atman, but not at all necessary).
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I donāt need 2 specific breakers for any given boardstate, some boardstates donāt even require 1. Yog works against every codegate except lotus field, which is usually a 1/2of, rex works against all of them, atman works against almost all of them
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I have as many ways through any piece of ice as your standard 3x special order deck, but Iām much faster at getting the second and third breaker. Thereās also a real benefit to not having to special order your breaker, clicks are tight, and you canāt special order, install, siphon, and shake tags on the same turn (on top of a billion other times when having the extra click is a big deal.)
The deck, and the many variations of it, got me to second in the stimhack league, and although a failed cyber-cypher build knocked me down a bit, Iām still in the top 20, and itās still shown great results.
5 Likes
RE: Special Order
I agree with everything youāre saying except the argument on special order. For early pressure you do, in fact, need at least 1 specific breaker. A smart corp will play a second type over the first so itās never a detriment to you to have a tutor. Beyond any of that, being able to tutor is not common in this game because it is a powerful effect.
The difference between our decks is redundancy in breakers. I donāt have a second corroder, switchblade, rex or a femme, so it makes more sense for me to run 3, I get that. What youāre saying about percentages is only partially correct, because drawing āa breakerā is not the same as drawing the breaker you need.
TLDR, I would say 2 of Special Order is worth it to maintain consistency and ensure early game pressure. Maybe consider dropping Rex or Passport in the atman build because it is going to drop at 4 and deal with lotus, which is the only reason to have other codegate breakers than yog.
2 Likes
Iād be interested to hear your thoughts on 1x Breach + 1x Corroder instead of 2x Corroder. Seems to me that would be an easy way to free up 2 influence while aiding your Blue Sun match up. Would losing the consistency of x2 Corroder for early remotes be too much of a detriment?
With the 2 influence you could add Parasite or if MU is indeed a problem, Dyson + Zu.13 could supplement Yog instead of Rex.
the early build had a zu, but I cut it because it kinda sucked against everything bigger than enigma. passport and rex is good enough for most games if you donāt want to spend influence on breakers, Iād say the yog and atman are the luxury influence before a second corroder. 2 corroders helps a lot against NEH, although if youāre more worried about blue sun I guess I could see a breach
Interesting, I was approaching it with the mindset that Yog was your primary codegate breaker and the others were to break Lotus/high str but it sounds like Yog is more of a support piece when needed. Iāll have to play some games with your list and get a feel for it!
the truth is, itās entirely flexible and you usually just play off what you have
Thanks for sharing Sam, you helped me a lot with your insights!
Took a Stealth Andy list to a tournament. These are my thoughts:
HB: CI is a problem. If you expect it, you need to slot in Kati Jones, because a Viktor 1.0 on Archives turns off security testing and running through Eli is expensive.
If youāre choosing between 2x Inside Job and 1x Inside Job, 1x Emergency Shutdown, pick 2x Inside Job.
2 Likes
Okay, went out and played your version for a bit.
Overall it feels more like Gabriel than Andromeda. As you said, you play what youāve been dealt and keep the pressure on. Odds are good that Corp just succumbs to your pressure. Sometimes you can even have that odd answer to a Corpās threat on hand (like Femme vs. Tollbooth, or Atman vs. Lotus and Eli).
I found it somewhat inconsistent compared to 3x Special Order + cheap breakers. If Security Testing gets shut off (Blue Sun or odd Tennin matchupā¦ or sometimes RP) your funds start drying (since your runs are not fuelled by Cloaks and breakers are expensive) and you have to rely on Kati more; and as a consequence you cycle through the deck slower.
The worst part is - as more or less I suspected - absence of fitting breaking tools at hand at certain clutch moments in some significant share of games. Out of 6 games I ran vs NEH Astrobiotics, two times I failed to pass a gearcheck ICE in time and Astrotrain has left the station without me. That other one time I failed to find Switchblade in time (27 cards in stack) and had to field a 0-strength Atman to deal with Archer/Grim/Roto threat on a scoring remote which in turn had certain long-term consequences of me having a hard time against his Lotus Field on HQ.
In general I have to admit that Datasuckers are handy at saving credits for Corroder, and they do work with Switchblade against Tsurugi/Komainu and to a certain extent even vs. Architect.
However, Datasuckers really suck at dealing with Archers (Or any high-str destroyers in fact). When that Blue Sun put up an Errand Boy ā Unrezzed ICE on R&D, I never ran this server again. Why? Because he had a Hostile Takeover scored while I had merely 2 Silencers installed and not enough Datasucker counters to deal with Archer possibility. Proper Stealth engine (read: the one with Cloaks and full set of Ghost Runners) has no problems vs. such boardstates.
I think your deck is by no means a bad deck. Itās still a strong deck just by virtue of using a tried-and-true Criminal shell - early pressure, some hard counters and a bunch of solid blue tricks to ride the momentum to victory. It does not have that consistent insane ālategameā rig of a Stealth deck that Special Order Andromeda sets up in 4-5 turns then cuts everywhere like a knife through butter because your deck never really aims to do so.
Given a choice of what to play on a tournament, Iād stick with full Stealth solution. Call me subjective, but I do have a lot of solid reasons to think that Andy Stealth is a more dangerous archetype compared to Andy Sucker Switchblade. At least in a current meta.
I dontā know where do you get that percentage. If we assume ābig codegateā means Lotus Field, you have 4 solutions for it (Femme, Rex, Passport, Atman), your odds of having one in the opener are 60.4%. Two of these solutions cost 7-9 credits of your bank so you canāt feasibly drop them as-is on the table, you have to have some sort of supporting economy on hand (Sure Gamble at least) so your odds are dropped even further down to 45.1% (either Rex, or Passport, or Femme and SG, or Atman and SG).
Refractor build odds to have an answer for Lotus Field @ HQ on opener are 52.6%. (Its {Refractor or Special Order} and {Cloak or Ghost Runner} ).
But that whole question is not a correct question to consider in context of a stealth deck.
Andy Stealth does not aim to get into HQ right now. There is no goal for early pressure. Andy Stealth aims to get into lategame ASAP. The correct question to present to Stealth is āHow long does it take you to get full rig and start running everywhere?ā
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After testing a lot of different options, I found that I like the Cloak/Refractor build a bit better. It sometimes feels very slow to get switchblade pieces though. Iām not sure if my breaker suite is correct. Is Faerie the right call here? Iād be interested to hear your thoughts!
Hereās what Iām running right now:
3 Cloak
3 Special Order
3 Ghost Runner
Icebreaker (8)
1x Breach
1x Corroder ā¢ā¢
2x Faerie
1x Femme Fatale
1x Passport
1x Refractor ā¢ā¢
1x Switchblade
After trying out Samās build I found I really missed Femme for problem ice. Breach has been fantastic against Bluesun and Iāve been able to get Corroder out quickly consistently enough.
Iāve also considered
-2 Faerie
+1 Switchblade
+1 Alias
This would allow for a backup Switchblade and less disposable early game pressure if the pieces are missing or needed for refractor.
Iām just gonna answer on this.
That was the gameplan of both AndySuckers and Toolbox Kate and that just donāt work in a fast-deck filled environnement. Everytime I see an Andy play a Cloak/Silencer/Ghost Runner on her first turn makes me happy as a NBN player. Seriously, this archetype just lose against NEH or any deck capable to score the first agenda between turn 2 and 4.
What if we brought the stealth suite of icebreakers (or at least Switchblade and some support) into Leela? Leelaās identity and multi-access cards (primarily RDI and Legwork, cards already prominent in Andy Stealth builds) devastate Corps that rush agendas and score early, but sheās typically weak in the long game once the Corp is set up. Do you think Leela could be a viable identity for a stealth build that doesnāt just lose in the early game and has a strong late game?
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